GolfHos

 :-\

I'm taking a page from campy or spanky (or alfalfa) or whoever said they were going into the trucking industry. I'm learning to be a tow truck driver.  :P later on will try to get my CDL.

Flatbed hauling at first and then slowly morph into a tow, really good pay, can't be afraid of grease or dirt or weird hours though.

So the guy training me today, 26 years old born with all sorts of maladies (I only caught half I'm sure), convicted of child indecencies with a 10 year old when he was 14, still on probation, will be a registered **** offender his whole life, his ex screwed his brother, now divorced, can't see his 2 year old son until he's off probation in February. He tells me he's an assistant pastor at his church he's a chain smoking cussing spit tobacco chewing mama jamma, we listened to ONE Christian CD the whole day, something by MercyMe which by the fourth time through I wanted to kill lots of people, isn't this how they tortured Marcos or Koresh?

So he lights up his second cigarette somewhere down the road (I don't mind) he cracked a window, and through all of this drama and second hand smoke, and hearing this kids life story and really, really, really bad jokes about (insert anything you want here) the only thing that really bothered me was...

...Gawd I really hate Christian music (but only after the third time through), no offense Eagle or Torp if you even read this but seriously C"MON! *please don't flame me or tell me how nice it is, or my favorite band is blah, blah, blah I've said lots worse.*

It was a good day though, felt good to be a productive member of the economy again, get off the Gov't teet for a spell.

 [sm_shock] [sm_shock] [sm_shock] [sm_shock] [sm_shock]

 [sm_thumbsup2] [sm_beertoast]

Nice.

UI8ylsHKIMg

 ;D

.
DaammaHevT0

I'd smite you if I wasn't so tired.  :)

See Gleek...THIS is how you earn karma.

I knew I could count on you brother Stroh, I saw a building today with Stroh on it, karma was pre ordained for you.

This song gets me through.  I know you'll make it too brother.

QpIsuH2aqLM

This guy, and I see eye to eye on this particular subject.

(http://www.fdiskc.com/img/Dude.jpg)

Corey Hart?

 [sm_rolling]  LMAO!  Got it. 

Good On You Seamus!!!!! ;D ;D ;D

Bye the way, I loved your story about the guy who trained you!!! ;D ;D ;D

Get the books to study for the CDL now.  Study up.  It isn't as easy as people would think.  Get your permits (yes multiple) now, take the written tests as soon as you think you can pass.  Once you get your driving permit, spend a lot of time practicing the manuvers the State Examiners will put you through.  Learn the pre-trip inspection so that you could do it in your sleep.  Here in Ohio, we have six months to get our license after we have passed the written exams.

I'm in my second week of classes on this.  I wll have every endorsement (tanker, doubles and triples, haz-mat, flat bed, reefer (refridgerated Stroh!) on my license except for passenger.  Driving a large vehicle and manuvering it is much different than driving an auto.

Good luck.  Off to 11 1/2 hours of classes now and it is 5am. [sm_sleepy1]

I like teets.

Roll on Seamie.  Roll on.

You guys (and gals) seriously crack me up.

I'm actually getting weepy.  :'(

You better man up a bit, or Haulin' for Jesus is gonna think you're a whack job.

I'm better now.

BTW we're actually Haulin' For Recovery Towing Jesus and Stryper are just our co-pilots.

[sm_devil]

Love,
gleek     ;D

Ky4rfA_tebY




p.s.   [sm_naughty] [sm_hump]

Don't you wish you could make her yodel?

This isn't going to be my normal type of post, so you (people) might actually want to read it. Then again maybe you won't, but that is your choice. Maybe I should have Nat quote it in case your one of the 5 that have me blocked. :)

MercyMe is an American contemporary Christian band which should never have the word Christian in it, because it is not. It is sad to think that's what so many people consider to be Christian music. (The people listening to it, and the people that have been told that that's Christian music.) What it really is, is one of the ever so many so-called "Christian bands" which are nothing but rock/rap/country/pop/jazz/whatever else music with a few "Christian" words thrown in them. That is (so-called) music we do not/will never listen to. What we listen to is "Christian hymns", God honoring songs such as "Amazing Grace (http://www.cyberhymnal.org/htm/a/m/a/amazing_grace.htm)", "Just A Closer Walk With Thee", "How Great Thou Art" that have no added beats or words in them. We do not listen to any "Christian bands" like MercyMe (or the countless others), only "Christian groups" that sing "Christian hymns" whose goal is to bring praise unto the Lord with their music not to get famous/rich/popular, like those bands. For a graduation gift I received one of MercyMe's CDs which we will be promptly returning to the store without even listening to, and if it wasn't a gift (well if it wasn't a gift I would never have it ...) I would be using it as a clay pigeon. That would be something worth shooting. :) And you didn't ask but, "Christian rock" "Christian rap" "Christian country" "Christian pop" "Christian jazz" etc bands are all oxymoron's and shouldn't be used in the same sentence. Please do not think that junk is what we listen to.

Sorry to break this to you, but ANYBODY who records and distributes a CD with Christian hymns, devil music, or otherwise is doing it to MAKE MONEY. The "message" being sent by what's on the CD is ancillary.

I don't know who to think is more cynical.

• The guy who believes that worship must take a particular form.  I know I come from the ultimate in "our Jesus is better than your Jesus" societies but I just can't give up on the idea that God loves us for who we are not the type of music we sing at him.
• The guy who contends that making a living and worshiping are mutually exclusive.  I don't know any successful religious artists but I have met a few up-and-comers.  They seem sincere.

But hey, what do I know.   ???

:sad3:

A.  Nice post Kevin.

B.  What about "make a joyful noise unto The Lord?"  If the message is constant, shouldn't the vehicle be judged only by the one for whom it was intended?

You are wrong. :) <--- I have never flat-out said that on a forum before, and I am not saying it to argue, but this time it is true. We buy most of them through our Church, a lot of them the groups record them themselves and sell them for cost. They are not making any money.

Well, I'm glad you're on your way to a new career.

In a way, I feel like I should apologize about that guy.  That is not the example that a "Christian" should have.  I said Christian in quotes, because he seems to have total disregard for what the Bible says.  I don't want to judge someone I haven't met; however, he was not showing any sort of spiritual fruit.  In fact, he's showing just the opposite.  I also have to wonder about his "church" because they are not following the Biblical standards for their church's elders.  A pastor is supposed be an example of a life set apart, show that he is the head of his family and that they are behaved and living for the Lord, and he should not be divorced. 

FWIW, you won't find me listening to MercyMe, FFH, or whomever.  You don't want recommendations so I won't give you any.  But those bands are not what I consider Christian music.  When I listen to music, I ask myself the question(s), "Will this help me in my walk with the Lord?  Will this encourage me to be more like Him?  Is this uplifting or is 'entertainment'?"  Songs by the modern CCM, can't do that.  Basically, it's for people who want to say they listen to "Christian music", but don't want to give up rock, jazz, country, etc. 

I hope the things I say and do never give you such a poor example of Christian testimony.  If you are interested in hearing what we listen to go to sacredaudio.com or wctsradio.com, they provide true Christian music.

Vikings go 3 and 13 this year.

It's possible, but it is also possible that they go 13-3. ;) ;D

 ;D  [sm_thumbsup2]  I was giving you a shot to try it out again, to see if you like it.  I figured that statement would bring it out. ;)

I think I get it now.  Since the devil created Rock and Roll, jazz etc. those mediums can't in turn be used to praise the lord. 

 :candle: :tinfoil:

I certainly don't think that. Artists write and perform to spread their version of whatever message they hope to get across. They RECORD AND SELL CDs to make money, earn a living, etc. so that they can live another day to keep spreading their message. If you believe that the ends justify the means, then I see nothing wrong with becoming famous, making money, and getting rich along the way.

Certainly most church pastors wouldn't take on their profession if they had to take a vow of poverty.

I stand corrected then.  I misread you.  Mea culpa.  :)

Don't give up on the idea, because it's true.  God does love us for who we are.  If He didn't we'd all be lost, because none of us could meet His standards. 

Yes, they do seem sincere.  What they say seems sincere.  That they want to "sing for God" is a good thing.  I think God is pleased when His children want to sing for Him.  I just think that the "means" is sometimes a sadness to Him as well.

I think our standards for music do matter to Him because music is mentioned quite a bit in the Bible, not to mention being set apart.  I also think that not enough study is given to what He says about music.

Many Christians who make the arguments for CCM is to quote Old Testament verses out of context and without consistency in the Word of God.  Another thing that isn't done is to go back to the Greek and Hebrew because they just want something that "supports" what they are saying. 

"Make a joyful noise unto the LORD, all ye lands.  Serve the LORD with gladness: come before his presence with singing.  Know ye that the LORD he is God: it is he that hath made us, and not we ourselves; we are his people, and the sheep of his pasture.  Enter into his gates with thanksgiving, and into his courts with praise: be thankful unto him, and bless his name.  For the LORD is good; his mercy is everlasting; and his truth endureth to all generations." Psalm 100 

"Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord;  Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;" Ephesians 5:19-20 

Colossians 3:16 says, "Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord." 

And Philippians 4:8 says, "Finally, brethren, whatsoever things are true, whatsoever things are honest, whatsoever things are just, whatsoever things are pure, whatsoever things are lovely, whatsoever things are of good report; if there be any virtue, and if there be any praise, think on these things."

"Whatsoever things are...

"true" = unconcealed, not deceitful, manifest, true to Scripture
"honest" = honorable, nobly serious, grave
"just"= equitable, innocent, holy, righteous, right conduct
"pure" = not contaminated; from the same root as "holy", clean, modest, sacred, blameless
"lovely" = acceptable, pleasing, agreeable
"good report" = fair speaking, well spoken of, reputable
"virtue" = moral excellence
"praise" = commendation, whatsoever is praise-worthy, a commendable thing
"think" = to take inventory, to reckon, to take account.

...think on these things."

Those are just some verses to consider when looking at music.  There's a lot more, too.  If anybody is really interested, I'll see if I can dig up some of the studies by people I know to be true to God and His Word.

I agree with A.

B is a very good question.  We are supposed to make a joyful noise unto the Lord.  One thing about the CCM bands is that the message isn't constant, and another is that the vehicle does matter.  Why?  Because the vehicle can be something that takes away the glory from God instead of bringing it to Him.  Would you say that the man training Seamus in was a good example of a Christian?  Is that something you would want to be like?  People look on the outward appearance, that's why we are supposed to be different.  The same thing goes for music.

If young people look onto hymnal music and find it uninteresting are they not at risk of being lost?
If on the other hand the "meat" is served on a different tasting bread, could not those young people discover a message they had no previous interest in attempting to digest?

I'm saying, what you call distasteful, non traditional, or distracting to the message is simply a derivative of that.  Taste.  It's different for everyone.

I feel a lot less guilty about making fun of Christian Rock groups now that I know they're not really Christian rock groups. Turns out they deserved it!

Well said stroh.

As your moderator I am warning you to stop calling people oxymorons. As golfhos, we all need to carry ourselves with more dignity than that. Moderation will be swift if you choose to ignore my warning.

There is no need for personal attacks.

Sorry E-A-G-L-E/Torpedo.  I can't buy into your position on what qualifies as worship music.  It's what's in the heart that matters.  Not what spills from the lips.

No music makes me feel more spiritually connected than Into The Mystic by Van the Man (many of his songs are very Christian in message but by no means would he primarily be considered a Christian artist).  If, on a sunny Sunday morning, I'm listening to that while riding a chairlift and staring at the beauty of creation I'm about as close to God as I get.  I'm sorry my approach seems lacking in credentials to you.  I'll be honest, I feel both of you are missing something very important on this one.  The position you've presented today seems, for lack of a better word, snobbish.  I think it rubs people the wrong way.  It does me.  Probably no more than some of my language and/or jokes do you though.  LOL.

Anyway, I understand I won't change your mind and I'm pretty certain you won't change mine.

Ere the bonnie boat was won...

People can try, but it won't work.

Here's some quotes regarding CCM:

William Kilpatrick, professor of education at Boston College (Why Jonny Can't Tell Right From Wrong) - "Rock can't be made respectable... The music will simply subvert the words... No matter how many reforms are attempted, rock... will gravitate in the direction of violence and uncommitted ****.  The beat says, 'Do what you want to do'."

James Chute, professional secular music critic for The Milwaukee Journal - "Let's not quibble.  The music's message is clear, adding the words Jesus Christ to the lyrics does not make one bit of difference.  Whether a metal head is listening to Ozzy Osbourne or Stryper, the feeling he or she gets in his gut is one and the same... The music inevitably overwhelms the best intentions of lyrics.  In the struggle between the words and the music... music most often has the upper hand.  The contemporary Christian musicians would have us believe that changing the words changes the music's very nature, as if the power of music resides in the words alone; as if music can be completely severed from its cultural and social context and suddenly take on meanings not only removed, but contradictory to those contexts.  The words don't really matter because the message is in the music.

CCM was supposed to be a means of "evangelizing" to those who are used to that type of music.  If the world doesn't believe it, shouldn't we take note?

Carman ( CCM Magazine, March 1988) - "What I have seen over the years is that when we try to use music as a tool for evangelism, we want to become as much like the people we are evangelizing as we can..."

That's not being set apart like God has said we should be.

Robert Berglund, conservative educated musician - "Even they are aware of the meaning of some of the current styles and they only have their musical expertise - not the added advantage of spiritual discernment to rely on.  By contrast it seems incongruous that some Christians can disregard and openly refute such judgments."



Bart Millard of the band Mercy Me (CCM Magazine, October 2002) - "There is a big movement of worship music right now.  And my fear is that it could be creating very shallow Christians, people who worship the act of worship more than they do Christ."

That's another one of my concerns, too.  That's why I don't have anything to do with CCM.

Oh brother, how about the 9,999,999 Bush bashing threads? The daily Prokrop bashing threads? The ...

I had to laugh the other day as I listened to my brother's girlfriend scroll through her 11 year old son's iPod to determine what needed to be deleted and what could stay. Decisions were arbitrary, and based almost entirely on her own appreciation of any given artist. Adultery, booze, drugs, etc. all appeared to be fine content, as long as they were accompanied by slide guitar and/or twangy vocals. Amplified distortion was nearly always a disqualifier, regardless of lyrical content.

I tend to believe the message is more important than the medium. There remain those who are simply more receptive to some vehicles than others. One need only look at the variety of ways Christians demonstrate their faith on Sunday to see that there is no single school of thought on how Jesus might best appreciate one's prostration.

Then again, I tend to believe that no one individual, ideology, or organization has the market cornered on when, where, and how to find personal peace.

Oh, BTW, congrats on your new job, Seamus!  ;D

That's supposed to be a "benefit" to CCM.  Yes, there is that possibility, but we are also supposed to grow in our walk with Christ.  That includes music, my fear is that they aren't getting to that.

Also a lot of the "Christian bands" aren't focusing on praising the Lord.  There might be a song or two on the whole CD meant to actually "praise" God.  But I don't see words like, "If I was a cowboy than I would wear a hat, and you would be my cowgirl and I could go for that.  But I'm not. *neigh* You know I'm not.  There's a lot of things that I know I will never be, but I can live with that as long as you're (talking to girlfriend, not God) with me."  When that's most, if not all, of the CD then it's not praise.

Yeah, taste is different.  When one is changed, the desire to serve God comes, and tastes can change, too. 


If someone is newly changed, music wouldn't be the first thing I'd talk to them about.  You have to start with the lighter things and then grow into the deeper things.  Some grow faster than others, not just physically but spiritually.  In fact, the more I study the Word of God, the more I see how similar our physical and spiritual bodies are.

"As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:" 1 Peter 2:2

"And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.  I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able to bear it, neither yet now are ye able." 1 Corinthians 3:2

Well I for one am glad Miles Davis, Coultrane, Van Morrison etc. used their 'gift' to create such beautiful music even if some people consider them heathens because they use instruments to create musical compositions.  


These art forms are one of our greatest gifts to humanity IMO.  If the devil compelled us to create them, then I say hail satan you rock.  Sorry EAGLE and Torp, I respect you and your opinion but just don't buy it.  

Usually deserved.  ;)

But I think the moderator was having a bit of fun in a thread that will have no one changing their mind any time soon. If I'm wrong I'll be moderated into oblivion and bid you a fond adieu...................

JDerion was just doing his job!!!!!! 8)

I thought that he could have been a touch harsher with you Torp!!!!! :o

Now respect your elders and your moderator's and do what your told!!!!!! 8)

I'm really not trying to be snobbish, nor rub someone the wrong way. :(  I tried to at least be tactful.  I just don't see it as a means that can glorify God from *every* angle.  However, that's not to say that it *never* can glorify God.  For most people, the beat is first, the lyrics secondary.  That you focus on the lyrics and the meaning, I think is important.  Most don't, they get sucked into the background.

I also think that there are standards in the Bible that are missed.  I'm not going to judge you for what you listen to.  (I won't judge anyone else about what they listen to, either.)  Nor will I say you're lacking credentials, I really won't.  Because, like you said, it's what is in the heart that matters.  What matters firstly, in the long run, is if you are right with God.  After that, it is our walk with Christ, which has to be based on the Bible. 

Like I said in another post, there's disagreement on this point (music), and you and I disagree.  I'd feel bad for not telling someone what I think the Scriptures say on an issue if they were open to talking about it.  However, there is also a time to close such discussions, and I think this might be it.  At least, for right here, right now.  I'd be open to discussing it in e-mails, though.  And I certainly don't want to sound like I'm just trying to get the last word in.  If you all want to discuss it that's fine, but I feel like I should be done 'cause others want to be done.

Nice *fudge*in' goin' Seamus.

 [sm_laughatyou]

I thought I just saw that you were "resting"

Yeah, I was just thinking that I completely jacked his thread.  :'( 

Sorry, Seamus. 

Really am glad that you're getting back to the work force. :)  Hope it will be something you enjoy.

A Coke, a smoke, and I'm back in the ring to take another swing!  Baby!

 ;D

Cuing Shook Me...

FONt47Z0KZg


 ;D

I rarely delve into religious matters due to the heat generated, yet I feel compelled to add a few cents now, and perhaps more later.

1 Corinthians  9:7-10, 9:22, 10:29b,14:26a

2 Corinthians 6:3a

I haven't the time currently to look for more.  There are many vehicles to find one's way to god in.  There is not only the way in which some believe.

God contains all things.  God is in all things.  Do not be so arrogant as to attempt to define what God does and does not enjoy.  For who knows the mind of God? 

No *goshdarn* *feces* man.

I was going to pop in and tell you what Grimey MacNasty said and did today that made me laugh, but by about the middle of page two I started feeling really bad.

Can we just have a group hug and move onto...something...anything.

On a related note I was able to hijack the player today and pop in his Nickelback CD (we listened to it for 6 hours), it was the lesser of 9 evils.

How 'bout that Prokrop/Phileo guy huh? Sheeesh what an ass.

 :-[

Bull*feces*! 

I think I speak for everyone here. , the majority of the people , some of us , at least one other dude, when I say we demand to hear daily serial type updates on the Crusin' with Christ series.

(http://users.aristotle.net/~crazymidiman/chancel.gif)




I'm just sayin'.

I'm surprised this hasn't made an appearance yet. You guys are slippin'.  LOL  I could only find the "Czech" version.  ;D

B3pCvDlFHjY

LOL!

I'd like too and it's a hoot with this dude, but I really don't want to offend my friends here that are true believers, and that really was not my intentions, I forgot that if you combine the words hate and Christian with anything it really brings out the passion in people.

Clearly I have  :airquotes: thinking it through to it's logical conclusion  :airquotes: issues.

:shoothead:

Christian Rock or Nickelback. Tough call. Seriously.

LOL!  Who don't?  It's a wonder I've been able to make 12 years of marriage.  ;D  I must have somethin' goin' for me.  [sm_naughty]

Really? At least NB had two songs I knew.

I mean it's either that or listening to him blather on about the women in his life, or his pedophiling past or how his Uncle is a top ranking White House Military official and got his brother out of doing time in Leavenworth because he deserted from the Army, or listening to really, really, really old jokes *example we pass by a cemetery* "Y'know people are just dying to get in there", or let's here again how you have upper respiratory disease while your sucking on your fourth Marlboro.

Man spacey I tell you what, and I never thought I'd say this, Nickelback was a godsend  blessing very welcomed yesterday.

I was thinking the same thing. Nickelback sucks so hard, just hearing their name gives me this flash of anger. It's kind of disturbing, really. I shouldn't care so much.

The next logical question then is: do you use that ghey, Minnesota finger-pointing thing after doing other things besides taking a golf swing?

Crap man.

Grimey says "we'll get started early tomorrow...7 or 8 AM"

It's almost 10.  [sm_devil]

i thought nickelcrap was xtian rock?  [sm_devil]

Well, not everything.  There is one activity in particular that meets the criteria for the point, upon successful completion, but falls short because the point is really intended for the viewing audience, and it was decided early on that those two notions would be deemed mutually exclusive.

If by "Hey, I wanna be a rock star"  they mean:  I wanna be a youth ministry counselor.

And by "Everybody's got a drug dealer on speed dial"  They mean: I have the phone numbers of the ladies church auxiliary handy.

And "I wanna join the mile high club at thirty seven thousand feet" with "Front door to the playboy mansion"
Mean Lead the church choir, and they always leave the basement door unlocked........


Then, yes.

I think Creed is pretty close.

allegory FTW  [sm_devil] ;)

my mistake.  :o   ;D

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v285/Minnesnowta_Girl/Smileys/Hug.gif) :)

I'm obviously popping in here too late today.

Seamus, I want you to know that I really wasn't offended.  Truly.  Feel free to tell the stories you want.  They won't offend me either.  I didn't take it as directed at me, but rather an observation and your opinion.  Like I said earlier, I feel like I should apologize on behalf of that guy. 

And I feel like kicking myself after having just said that I hope I never have a poor testimony then go on to say something that makes me sound snobbish.  I didn't always have the position on music that I do now.  But, in the last 8 years, I've done 3 separate studies on music.  Of course, I had the opportunity to prepare my heart to be open to hearing and studying things that might (and did) cause me to change my perspective.  I didn't go into the studies with a predetermined bias towards more conservative music.  Quite the contrary, when I started the first study, I didn't think I'd have much to change at all but still willing to.  However, I realized there were some things I needed to let go of so that my life had a better capability to glorify God.  The second study, while still open to both sides, confirmed the first study.  The third cemented my position.  And while some of the songs I used to listen to had good lyrics, I've found that there typically is so much more depth in older hymns. That's not to say I don't listen to any new songs, just not CCM.  My tastes have changed.  To not say that I think God has standards even for music, would also be like me not saying that there is but One Way to salvation.  That may sound snobbish, but I believe the Bible to be the Word of God, and that's what He says.  I don't believe that we can't know the mind of God at all, either.  He has given us His Word, and He has told us His mind on things - and from the studies I've done, I think music is one of those things.I guess what I believe will always come across as snobbish to someone, but I hope you all see that I try to do as I say I believe.  That I don't just say something, but prove that I live what I believe.  And that I truly am not a snob.  You have a choice to believe what you want, and I believe the Bible.

I also hope that you didn't/don't take my explanations on music (or anything else) as flaming what you said.  That wasn't my intention at all.  Or what anyone said.  There's just so much I could say on music that I get carried away.  And obviously I wasn't completely up to the conversation (and giving it my whole heart, in that to say things as tactfully as I can and explain it as best as I can) because it completely exhausted me.  (I haven't been able to shake off a lung infection since January, despite following the doctor's recommendations. :()  That's not an excuse, I'm just thinking and typing (and sure to be rambling).  Anyway, I'd like to apologize to you and anyone for getting carried away.  That doesn't mean I don't believe what I said, but I could have said it better, or not all at once, or at a different time, or somewhere else, or something.  So, I'm sorry and I hope you all will forgive me.