GolfHos

Much talk lately about the university presidents all signing to have the legal drinking age lowered back to 18.

What's everyones take?

Personally, I'm for it.  I will believe it will temper on campus binge drinking.

I say, however, if you do it you must marry it with much stiffer penalties for alcohol related crimes.

I think if you're old enough to pick up a rifle and die for your country, you're old enough to have a beer.

Agreed.  That's exactly how I played it at 18.

Agree.

Eighteen is the age over here that you are classified as an adult and you can legally have a drink.

I don't necessarily agree.

You do your warring away; you do your drinking at home.  The public health/safety concerns that don't exist with war activities do exist at home.  (That is to say, we don't really give a *feces* who all dies when we send you and your weapon overseas, but we sure as hell do care whether or not you smash into some soccer mom's minivan full of kids.)  Teens get their licenses at 16.  I don't think two years' limited driving experience is enough to add alcohol to the mix.

DUI aside, I also wonder at the psychological development/maturity of 18-year-old Americans.  Would exposure to alcohol at 18 increase alcohol/drug use later in life?  My completely anecdotal seat-of-the-pants observation is that the people I know/knew who drank earlier tend now to be the ones who drink more and who got into drugs.  The ones who didn't do any or as much underage drinking tend now to be limited drinkers.  Yes, I get that the two pools may be cut from different cloth ... but without some evidence that underage exposure itself isn't a contributing factor, I'm hesitant to endorse it.

I'm more on Clive's side on this one.  If we had adequate public transportation I may change my tune.  I don't necessarily agree with him that earlier exposure leads to more future use.  I feel the removed stigma attached to doing something illegal will make it less of a big deal.  It seems that is the case in Europe.  Earlier exposure could help with learning responsibility that comes with drinking.  Now kids have to binge because they aren't allowed to just chill with a beer you know.  It becomes a huge deal procuring said beverages, then you got to have a party and what now.  Okay so I'm more on the fence than I thought I guess.

But in all fairness, we're not talking about at what age an individual might be better equipped to drive a car intoxicated. DUI is illegal at any age, and lowering the legal drinking age doesn't make DUI any less illegal.

Slipping into armchair human behaviorist mode, I think the reason underage drinking in the U.S. might potentially lead to increased incidence of alcohol and drug abuse has more to do with the taboo and rebellion of it than to do with at what age people begin drinking. Particularly, in my completely untrained opinion, when it's "screw you, I'm 18 and I'm old enough to make my own decisions" type drinking.

Anecdotal evidence aside, I think there would be value in comparing the rates of alcoholism, DUI, and other alcohol related crimes between the U.S. and other countries with lower minimum drinking ages, and no minimum drinking age at all. I, of course, am far too lazy to do the leg work.

This is exactly my argument.


Like I said initially, ETOH driving penalties must go beyond punitive to downright oppressive.  Period.

My experience is that those who will, do.

I heard an interesting take on it that I like.  Probably too huge of a logistic undertaking but a good idea.  A step system to graduating up.

18 legal consumption with parents.
19 legal consumption alone, limited purchase. (beer only, limited quantities, etc.)
21 legal consumption.

The drinking age changed to 21 just when I was 16 or so. I was pissed. I drank in spite of it. When I was in the Navy and in Florida the driking age was still 18 but about to change. I drank legaly there for about 2 months. I got bored with it in that time and no longer drank heavily until I got the the ship.

I agree on take away the taboo of it and it's no big deal. You tell me I can't and that makes me want to more. If you let me have it, meh no big deal.

Some people will still drink a lot. Most I think will not. Was it such a big problem back in the day when it was legal at 18?

I say lower it, remove the 'forbidden fruit' aspect of it, etc.

I have a good friend that never drank until he was 21 - he's now a drinker and a smoker.  My brother drank as a teenager and hardly has a drink now (I ruined him on a visit to see me at college  ;) ).  Completely anecdotal, sure, but its what I have in my head right now.

Trust/maturity - I did just as stupid and foolish things in my 20s as I did when I was 18.  I've never had an alcohol related incident (legally, nor one that resulted in injury - unless of course you include injuring ones pride) at either age.  I think us older folk tend to think 18 year olds are a lot less mature than they are.  I trust me at 18, why should I not trust others at the same age?

Finally, we don't need to increase the penalties - they are plenty stiff now.  Just because only 1 of 100 get caught doesn't mean you have to levy 100 times the punishment on that one.  We need to stop trying to over-punish the ones we've caught because we're pissed about the ones that were not.  Punish for the crime, not for the ones that aren't caught.  Trust me - go get a DUI/DWI, then see if you tell me the penalty needs to be stiffer.  We're good.  MADD did their job 15 or so years ago, lets not go too far.

(http://www.sunjambooks.com/DAMMlogoColor.jpg)

I think you've got something there, Spacey!  Let's change the law to let any military folk drink legally when they are under 21.  I don't see why we should extend that to anyone else under 21, just because they have some unfulfilled potential to serve in the military. 

The impetus for the original push to force the states to raise their legal drinking ages to 21 was not to protect those from 18 to 20, but to distance the ability of kids in high school to easily get alcohol.  I believe that the university Presidents have missed that distinction in the intent of the law. 

Plus, letting active military folk enjoy this benefit of their service to the country might influence  some of the dead end job slackers working in Blockbuster, AMC Theaters, and Zumiez Skateboard Shop to realize that military service isn't a bad stop to a productive career.  I've not seen a little military service hurt anyone, and quite frankly, I see plenty of people skating through life that it would immeasurably help.

When I was in college, the drinking age was 18.  Learning what I could and couldn't handle was as much of the college experience as the classroom.

Although making it 19 generally keeps it out of the high schools (In theory).

So you guys are saying that 18 year olds have the (supposed) judgement to vote for the most powerful man in the world, but not when to have a drink or not?

I'm calling BS.


'Zactly, and every swingin' richard ought to be required to do the former, and then decide if they want to the latter.

trust me on this, i was in our local pub tonight (and this is FY move in week / grown up re-move in week)  .

most of these tards are not capable of responsible drinking.  that said, they're also perfectably capable of being drafted.  if so, let em get blasted.

Consider the voter turnout of the under-21 crowd.  Now consider the turnout you'd get if you advertised, instead of a chance to vote for President, free beer with no legal consequences.

I was thinking about this more on the drive home.  While it's glib, I'm looking for the rational connection between the two activities.  The 18-yo in the Army is given a weapon designed to kill humans; he's taught to use it precisely for that purpose; he's rigorously trained to be as obedient as possible; and his actual carrying and potential use of that weapon for that purpose is, generally speaking, rigidly supervised and controlled by people he's been drilled over and over to obey.  The environment in which an 18-yo might drink in the US, were it legal, seems pretty much the opposite of that.

Another thought: a drinking age of 18 essentially means no alcohol in high school.  I'm guessing that nearly all of us who attended college drank before we were 21.  In three years of underage drinking, did anyone really have a strong fear of getting caught and punished?  I never met anyone who did ... so that was three years of underage drinking NOT being some illicit activity that we had to sneak around to do.  And there weren't too many moderate drinkers in college, IIRC.

rigorously trained to be as obedient as possible

Nope, try again. Rigorously trained, yes. Obedient as possible is a job for the Moonies, not the military.

Did you really mean "Moonies" or did you mean something else?

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Jessep: Have you ever spent time in an infantry unit, son?
Kaffee: No sir.
Jessep: Ever served in a forward area?
Kaffee: No sir.
Jessep: Ever put your life in another man's hands, ask him to put his life in yours?
Kaffee: No sir.
Jessep: We follow orders, son. We follow orders or people die. It's that simple. Are we clear?
Kaffee: Yes sir.
Jessep: Are we clear?
Kaffee: Crystal.

MFAWG: Ever been to enlisted basic training?

Clive: No.

MFAWG: Attended a military academy, ROTC, or JROTC program?

Clive: No.

MFAWG: Done anything but watch Full Metal Jacket and/or From Here to Eternity and/or Sands of Iwo Jima?

Clive: No


MFAWG: Then how the *fudge* do you know?



You are taught to follow orders, and how to act in the absence of orders. In short, you're taught that you have responsibilities that go way beyond yourself.

YMMV.

Know?  Know?  I just state something and it becomes fact.  (Geez, you'd think people would know me after almost 30,000 posts.)


(That, and friends/family in the military.)

LOL...

You're overall point seems to be that 18 year olds are given weapons (up to and including thermonuclear devices) and allowed to use them only when closely supervised by "adults".

It's just not true.

I realize that the comparison between being sent off to war and being responsible enough to drink a beer is not a strong corollary. However, in my estimation, you're either an adult or you're not. Not every 18 year old can be trusted to make good decisions with alcohol, but not every 30 year old, or 50  year old for that matter, can be either.

College campuses are somewhat shackled in their ability to reinforce safe drinking behaviors because by and large most people in college aren't old enough to legally drink. The message to our nations youth is never "drink responsibly," it's always "don't drink until you're old enough." Knowing full well that 18 year olds, or 16 year olds who want to drink will figure out a way, and will probably not do it smartly, and knowing full well that there are just as many mature and responsible 18 year olds as there are 21 year olds, it seems that to deem someone an adult at 18 for all intents and purposes other than the consumption of alcohol is arbitrary and ineffectual.

If 18 is old enough to vote, old enough to enlist in the military, old enough to solely enter into a legally binding contract, old enough to go to prison, old enough to buy a firearm, etc., I think 18 is old enough to buy and drink some beer. If 18 isn't old enough to be trusted to make at least reasonable decisions regarding alcohol, and be held responsible for them, perhaps we should reevaluate whether 18 is old enough to vote, buy a gun, join the army, sign a contract, get married, etc.

I guess I need to repeat myself.

I still believe we're placing far too little faith in our youth.  Give them the responsibility and they will surprise you.  You may desire to amplify the failures and mute the successes, but I choose to accept them for what they are - the failures and success of humanity, rather than those of youth.  My success and failures with alcohol had everything to do with my experience, not my age.

But I do like Spartans point - 19 seems to keep it out of the high schools (inconsistent argument accepted), can we compromise on that?





BTW, the above was written with a healthy buzz.....   and a designated driver.

Possibly a Utah thing but...

Four underage possession of alcohol tickets.  The first when I was 18.  I wasn't drinking but was "in the area" and bundled with a contributing to the delinquency of minors citation and a night in jail.  (Up by the "B" in spacey-ville for the interested.)

Everyone I knew had multiple possession tickets.  Granted, we partied hard and we partied a lot.  But not far from what I must imagine is the norm in Pittsburgh.  Maybe Clive lived in a better neighborhood.

When I joined the military I forgot to tell them about one of them.  They found out during a background check and while in basic I was under fraudulent enlistment investigation.  Due to my fragile, tear 'em down and build 'em back up state of mind I was in mortal fear of jail for five weeks.  Basic training is tough enough mentally without that hanging over your head. 

I have a rich history of being caught and punished.

My kids will learn (are learning) an appropriate attitude toward alcohol and the laws thereof.  It's possible there will be a bit of civil disobedience involved.

Just tonight, I may have just changed my mind about the maturity of 18 year olds  [sm_devil] ;)

We've already run the experiment.  Keeping it at 21  is "net net" better than going back to 18.

UPDATE:

Here's a pic  (http://deadspin.com/5041670/this-man-isnt-doing-much-to-help-negative-community-college-stereotypes-or-mini+keg-sales)of one of the College presidents who are advocating lowering the drinking age.