GolfHos

So, we're playing the 11th at Maplewood, and I lose my tee shot a tad right.

It ends up sitting next to a cartpath, inside a lateral hazard but very, very playable.

My stance was on the cart path, and my playing partner seemed to think I could drop (no penalty) as a result.

I played out of the hazard (without grounding the club) thinking that since it was in the hazard, an unplayable or drop would entail a 2 stroke penalty, regardless of the interference of the cartpath.

Could I have dropped with no penalty?

I'm no rules expert but I think if the ball is in a hazard that trumps the cart path. My guess would be if you drop that's a stroke.

That was my thinking too...

Can you drop free of the cart path but still in the hazard?

*edit* the cart path is INSIDE a lateral hazard?

A cart path is an immovable obstruction. 

No, the right edge of the cart path is painted as the boundary of the hazard, with the left edge bordering the rough and fairway.

Uisce found the  answer right here:




26.1:


Now, for some reason I thought if I dropped outside the hazard it would be a two stroke penalty, but I guess I'm wrong.

Maybe the 2 strokes is for bunkers only?

You might be mixing your two-stroke-penalty with your two-clublengths-relief.

No, I understand the 2 club lengths. (Basically: Free relief is 1, relief with a penalty is 2).

I thought I saw a thread on FIGS where if you took an unplayable in a bunker, the ball had to be dropped in the bunker for a 1 stroke penalty, but if you elected to drop outside the bunker it would be 2.

That was my confusion.

It worked out in the end: I made a bogey 5 on a hole I'm happy to walk away with anything less than 6, and 7 is for SURE not out of the question.

That's right.  The proper procedure under rule 28 (b) or (c) is to drop within the bunker under penalty of one stroke.  If the player drops outside the bunker, other than under option (a), he is in violation of rule 28 and is penalized two strokes.  Then you get into that whole playing from the wrong place business and it gets into "someone call atticus" territory very quickly.

Note: Applies to bunkers only.  Does not apply to WH and LWH.  Rule 28 does not work for you there although 26-1 gives you basically the same options.

Got ya...

The whole point of the original play was that the ball was actually in a very good lie, other than being in a hazard and having to stand on the cart path to play it.





You know, I've never really considered option A, which is the following scenario:

Chunk or blade 125 yard 2nd shot into face of monstrous, muddy azz Seattle bunker, declare ball unplayable and hit 4th shot from 125, as opposed to hitting 4 from out of the bunker after dropping.

That's what provisionals are for, right?

That's why these threads are good...

Unfortunately, a provisional can't be used in this scenario.  You can announce and play one of course, but once the first ball proves not to be (a) lost or (b) out of bounds it is the ball in play.  You can declare it unplayable at that point but under no circumstances can you short circuit the provisional ball into play.

Ah, so I'd actually have to perform 'The Walk Of Shame' after declaring the ball unplayable?

Not a problem. 44 year old men have very little shame left, particularly on the golf course...

Under the ROG, yes.  Assuming you wanted to proceed under option 28(a) that is.

This is actually similar to an aspect of the rules that I purposefully violate from time to time.  On Spacey's nemesis hole (par three with water front, left and behind) it's very easy to go long and have your ball disappear.  It might be behind the green in the short rough, in a bunker, or in the drink.  Since it's a regular water hazard there's no drop possible on the green side of the water.  To play completely within the rules you'd have to go up to the green, find out and, if necessary, come back to the tee side of the water.  Don't say it Clive; we'll have no "reasonable evidence" discussion in this thread thank you very much.  ;)

In this sort of scenario we'll at times play a "26-1 provisional".  If we find out the original ball went in the water we wave a magic wand and the second ball becomes the ball in play as if we had proceeded under 26-1a and that was the result of the appropriate shot. 

Completely illegal, wrong, no excuse, and so forth.  However, it beats having your head pounded in by the group behind you on a busy Sunday morning.

This is an example where the "one size fits all" characteristic of the rules presents a dilemma.  You want to do the right thing but the nature of casual, non-tournament golf makes it difficult/impossible.  We end up recording an X for the hole (par + strokes) under section 4-2 of the USGA Handicap System Manual so there's no sandbagging aspect involved but the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  There's simply no good solution under the ROG.  I guess I'm, for the most part, a "rules purist" but I'd never advocate wading into a confrontation in your pursuit of the integrity of the game

We wouldn't do this in any sort of competition other than our normal one-v-one bet for a beer.  For example, if the scenario arose during a GHRC round I'd either take the walk of shame or lose the hole.

You may pelt me with rocks now.

Solely for the sake of argument:

1) I hit 2nd shot from 125, and watch it sail into the face of said muddy azz bunker, and stay embedded under the lip.

Can I declare the ball unplayable right then, and hit from the same spot taking the appropriate penalty ('Drop 3, hit 4)?

Actually, you can always do this, but the first ball is 'Dead' no matter the circumstance, right?

If I understand what Uisce had been saying (and the little I know of the rules) once you declare a ball unplayable you can drop. I think where you are confusing things is the difference between unplayable and lost. In your scenario the ball is unplayable, not lost (unless it is so buried that it is completely covered with that "mud"). You can pick up the unplayable ball and drop it instead of a new ball.

Determining a ball unplayable from 120 yards out I guess is possible but sounds more like a Tin Cup moment. There is nothing that says you can't since you are taking the penalty stroke (and in match play lose the hole).

1) Yes.

2) Yes.  You have to be careful though.  You can't declare a ball unplayable and proceed under rule 28 if the ball is in a water hazard.  You can proceed under rule 26-1 and do the exact same thing though.  It's semantics but there is a difference and I'm sure someone, somewhere has been caught out by it.  So, the "you can always do this" bit isn't quite accurate. 

The loss of hole penalty in match play (and the corresponding two stroke penalty in stroke play) is for breach of the rule.  Proceeding under the rule incurs a single penalty stroke in both forms of play.

Ahh, I'm not sure what I was thinking there. But I do claim that I don't know all the rules. That I am sure of. ;D

Getting the ROG down even reasonably well requires significant effort.  I actually enjoy the challenge and browse the decisions for fun.  Even so, I'm a rank journeyman and if I step away for a while I start to forget what I do know.  I started lurking on FIGs R&E about two months ago just for that reason.  Some good rules heads there still even though they are in chronic need of a sense of humor.   ;)

'Cept Persnicketymon of course.  He's wicked funny but, well, casting pearls before swine and all that.   :o

If you believe the ball to be outside a hazard, you can take an unplayable lie without even looking for/finding it.

Wow, splitting the little red hairs from 'Down There', aren't we now??? ;D

'Lost in hazard' and 'Unplayable' are 2 different things, but the end result is the same:

'Drop 3, hit 4'. (Can you tell I have that mantra down?  ::))

I'm pretty sure 'Unplayable' is solely in the eye of the beholder. I could (theoretically) declare any ball unplayable, not that that's a realistic scenario.

The end result is the same but how you got there matters.  Not necessarily as a point of dispute on the course but it's good to know these things.  We want to make sure all our readers  ::) understand the difference. 


Uplayable is indeed in the eye of the beholder.  In fact, you don't even have to declare a ball unplayable aloud.  Putting a new ball in play is sufficient.  Declaring a ball unplayable that is known to be within the margins of a water hazard violates the rules of golf though.  I'd be careful about verbalizing such an action during, oh, let's say a GHRC match.   [sm_devil]

It would be very interesting to know what a bona fide referee would do if he became aware of such a procedure.

You can't declare ANY ball unplayable.  A lost ball is lost (as you may know this term is defined under the rules and has specific meaning).  An OB ball is OB.  A ball in a water hazard is a ball in a water hazard.  Those are facts.  Given the facts of any particular situation there are definitely times when you're not allowed to proceed under rule 28 or you're only allowed to proceed under just one of its three options.  Just because option (a) is seemingly the same as options granted under rules 26 and 27 it doesn't mean the rules themselves are interchangeable.

There are good reasons why my little cheat described above is not permitted under the rules.  Has to do with the (b) and (c) options of rules 26 and 28 vs. the lack thereof under rule 27.  Whole other thread.   ;) :D

I should have been more specific:

Any ball visible on the course can be deemed unplayable, but obviously a ball in the water or a ball lost aren't visible.

Theoretically, I could hit my 125 yard shot to 6 inches, and declare it 'unplayable', and 'Drop 3, Hit 4' from the 125...

[nitpick]

Under Rule 28, your line relief on which to drop would be defined by the hole and the location of your unplayable ball.  Under Rule 26, that line is defined by the hole and the point on the hazard's margin at which the ball last crossed into said margin.

In any one specific instance, it might collapse into the same result, or it might vary greatly.

[/nitpick]

Good point Clive.

Parallels my main point really.  I make a statement like that and you come along and evaluate it at face value whereupon it falls down.  That's the thing about the rules.  You can't shortcut.  Just because A leads to B which leads to C it doesn't necessarily follow that A leads to C.  You have to take each circumstance on its own merits and apply the rules appropriately.