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Serious quasi-religious question

 
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spacey
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Serious quasi-religious question
« on: February 07, 2007, 03:35:07 PM »

I was going to post this on figs but thought better of it as I figure it would only serve to become another stupid pissing contest. I don't know if anyone here knows this or not, but it's something I've wondered about for much of my adult life.

I was raised in the Mormon faith and Mormons are not, shall we say, imbibers. As a child I remember being told that drinking is a sin, but was always confused about the repeated references to wine in the bible. Whenever the question came up I was always told that the wine in the bible wasn't alcoholic and that "wine" in the bible really means "grape juice." As a young child who knew nothing about natural fermentation, I was more than happy to accept this explanation.

As an adult, this assertion is hard (well, impossible really) for me to swallow. My question is this: I know Mormons aren't the only sect who frown on alcohol, but is anyone aware of other sects besides the Mormons believe that wine in the bible is really grape juice, and if so, any idea what is their historical or biblical justification for believing so?
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gleek
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #1 on: February 07, 2007, 03:37:35 PM »

Do you really mean "serious" quasi-religious question, or do you really mean "quasi-serious" religious question?
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spacey
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #2 on: February 07, 2007, 03:39:07 PM »

Do you really mean "serious" quasi-religious question, or do you really mean "quasi-serious" religious question?

Well, I don't know if it's actually a "religious" question in the grand scope of religion and religiousness, and religiocity and so forth, which is why I threw in the "quasi" part, but yes, I'm serious in asking.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #3 on: February 07, 2007, 03:40:01 PM »

Uisce slinks off to Utah Lighthouse Ministries and hides beneath a rock with a pair of magic spectacles.   Stir the pot
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #4 on: February 07, 2007, 03:41:59 PM »

Knob Creek by itself is close to a "religious experience."
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #5 on: February 07, 2007, 03:44:33 PM »

How dare you suggest that they make up *feces* to fit the view they want of it and to govern how they want their followers to behave?

Smite be upon you brother, repent.

Frozen yogurt doesn't do that, by the way, it's the one true snack.

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Jules
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2007, 03:45:36 PM »

Sorry I can't help you.
I was brought up in a Catholic household, and the Catholic's rejoice in drinking and gambling!!!!!! Grin Grin Grin
Although, one grandmother always gave up smoking, drinking and the poker-machines every lent!!!!!!!!! Grin Grin Grin
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gleek
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2007, 03:47:52 PM »

I think that grape juice is/was never pure grape juice. It's always in a partial state of fermentation. Given that in "biblical times" there was no such thing as refrigeration and that grape juice has a high sugar content, one has to assume that the "grape juice" at the time (if that is what "they" (ancient biblical ugly dudes) were drinking) had to have had some alcohol in it--and definitely more than today's Welch's Grape Juice from a jug.
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stegerman
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2007, 03:50:26 PM »

I was going to post this on figs but thought better of it as I figure it would only serve to become another stupid pissing contest. I don't know if anyone here knows this or not, but it's something I've wondered about for much of my adult life.

I was raised in the Mormon faith and Mormons are not, shall we say, imbibers. As a child I remember being told that drinking is a sin, but was always confused about the repeated references to wine in the bible. Whenever the question came up I was always told that the wine in the bible wasn't alcoholic and that "wine" in the bible really means "grape juice." As a young child who knew nothing about natural fermentation, I was more than happy to accept this explanation.

As an adult, this assertion is hard (well, impossible really) for me to swallow. My question is this: I know Mormons aren't the only sect who frown on alcohol, but is anyone aware of other sects besides the Mormons believe that wine in the bible is really grape juice, and if so, any idea what is their historical or biblical justification for believing so?

Mormons refer to the Book of Wisdom when defending their stance on not drinking alcohol or caffeine, as I understand it.

I think this link does a pretty good job of answering your second question.

This quote is where I stand on the issue.
Quote
The proper relationship between alcohol and Christians is really quite plain. It is merely a matter of moderation. As Paul told Timothy, "Drink no longer water, but use a little wine . . . ." When he wrote to the Ephesians he specified, "And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess . . . ." He said to not get drunk, but he did not say to totally abstain from wine. What is absent is just as important as what is present. "Let your moderation be known unto all men" (Philippians 4:5). Christians and alcohol can mix and, when celebrating Christ's death, wine is an integral and even vital ingredient. Paul again makes this point clear in I Corinthians 11:20-29 by outlining the aspects of the Passover service and making special mention of the proper spirit of this solemn celebration and admonishing against overeating and drunkenness. And again you do not get drunk from drinking grape juice, making the use of wine (as Christ obviously did) an obligatory part of the service. Abstinence is not taught by the Bible, but neither is drunkenness. Moderation is the key.

http://www.biblestudy.org/basicart/chrdrink.html
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2007, 03:53:05 PM »

Moderation is the key.

That ruins fruit fermentation, especially of Figs.



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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2007, 03:54:07 PM »

How dare you suggest that they make up *feces* to fit the view they want of it and to govern how they want their followers to behave?

Well...  Don't Know

When we're done with grape juice let's jump right into the "delightsome and white", errrmmmm, I meant "pure" thing. 
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gleek
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #11 on: February 07, 2007, 04:00:01 PM »

From a purely economic standpoint:

less money spent on booze = greater tithe

or in a more indirect way:

less drinking of booze = less gambling = greater tithe

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spacey
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #12 on: February 07, 2007, 04:02:36 PM »

I think that grape juice is/was never pure grape juice. It's always in a partial state of fermentation. Given that in "biblical times" there was no such thing as refrigeration and that grape juice has a high sugar content, one has to assume that the "grape juice" at the time (if that is what "they" (ancient biblical ugly dudes) were drinking) had to have had some alcohol in it--and definitely more than today's Welch's Grape Juice from a jug.

That's kind of where this question is coming from. I just wonder how people are able to believe that if we can't keep grape juice from naturally fermenting (at least not without additives, preservatives, etc) in 2007, how they managed to do it 2000 years ago.

My question isn't really so much of whether the bible says it's true (because I know it doesn't), but rather is it just an alternate of "because I said so" for mormons to tell their children? (My guess is the latter, but I figured someone here may have heard something similar in other religions.)
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campy
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #13 on: February 07, 2007, 07:29:11 PM »

I was going to post this on figs but thought better of it as I figure it would only serve to become another stupid pissing contest. I don't know if anyone here knows this or not, but it's something I've wondered about for much of my adult life.

I was raised in the Mormon faith and Mormons are not, shall we say, imbibers. As a child I remember being told that drinking is a sin, but was always confused about the repeated references to wine in the bible. Whenever the question came up I was always told that the wine in the bible wasn't alcoholic and that "wine" in the bible really means "grape juice." As a young child who knew nothing about natural fermentation, I was more than happy to accept this explanation.

As an adult, this assertion is hard (well, impossible really) for me to swallow. My question is this: I know Mormons aren't the only sect who frown on alcohol, but is anyone aware of other sects besides the Mormons believe that wine in the bible is really grape juice, and if so, any idea what is their historical or biblical justification for believing so?

You are aware of why you always take 2 Mormons fishing with you right?
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spacey
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Re: Serious quasi-religious question
« Reply #14 on: February 07, 2007, 07:29:49 PM »

I was going to post this on figs but thought better of it as I figure it would only serve to become another stupid pissing contest. I don't know if anyone here knows this or not, but it's something I've wondered about for much of my adult life.

I was raised in the Mormon faith and Mormons are not, shall we say, imbibers. As a child I remember being told that drinking is a sin, but was always confused about the repeated references to wine in the bible. Whenever the question came up I was always told that the wine in the bible wasn't alcoholic and that "wine" in the bible really means "grape juice." As a young child who knew nothing about natural fermentation, I was more than happy to accept this explanation.

As an adult, this assertion is hard (well, impossible really) for me to swallow. My question is this: I know Mormons aren't the only sect who frown on alcohol, but is anyone aware of other sects besides the Mormons believe that wine in the bible is really grape juice, and if so, any idea what is their historical or biblical justification for believing so?

You are aware of why you always take 2 Mormons fishing with you right?
Indeed I am.  Wink
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