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Match Play tourney going awry.....

 
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hobbit
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Match Play tourney going awry.....
« on: July 28, 2007, 08:32:06 PM »

A friend that runs a match play tourney for the Mens Club at his local Muni sent me this requesting my opinion......

(I hid the names to protect the innocent and the guilty.... ah forget it - seems I missed one so they're back in - kinda  Wink )

Quote
Marty and I played our match this morning and finished 18 holes all square. We played three playoff holes and need a ruling as to the finish.
 
Marty gets four strokes in 18 holes because my handicap is six and his is ten. We started our playoff on #1. I pared it and Marty made a bogey. That is the #1 handicap hole, so it was clear that #1 was a push and we played #2. We both birdied #2. As that is the #3 handicap hole we were unsure if Marty gets a shot there. He would if we were playing 18 holes, but it was a sudden-death playoff that had only gone two holes. We played #3, I made a par and Marty bogeyed it. That was all we played because Marty was short on time.
 
Kierkegaard said that Marty gets a shot on #2 because we should restart as if we are playing another 18, but I don't see how that is fair. How can Marty get two of his four shots in a sudden-death playoff that only goes two or three holes? If Marty gets two shots in nine holes we should play the whole nine to decide, not just the two holes where he gets strokes.
 
That's just my opinion. I will accept whatever your decision is.
 



On another note, Marty and I were both disappointed with Roy's blow-up at Lawrence of Arabia that caused Lawrence of Arabia to resign and walk off the course on #17. Lawrence of Arabia had made a few minor mistakes with the rules, and Roy got mad each time, progressively worse until his blow-up:

    *
      On #12 Lawrence of Arabia teed-up a few inches in front of the markers. Rob Roy called him on it before he played the shot. Lawrence of Arabia apologized and properly re-teed. Rob Roy was agitated and commented that Lawrence of Arabia should know the rules.
    *
      On #13 Lawrence of Arabia healed his club in the hazard. Rob Roy again pointed it out before Lawrence of Arabia played the shot, but after the shot was played Rob Roy was increasingly agitated and complained about it.
    *
      On #16 Lawrence of Arabia putted first to about three feet past the hole. Lawrence of Arabia prepared to finish up, but Rob Roy objected that he was out, which he was. Lawrence of Arabia apologized and marked his ball. Roy was irritated that he had to tell Lawrence of Arabia that he was out. Rob Roy missed his 5' putt and then blew-up and blamed Lawrence of Arabia for making him miss the putt. Rob Roy was swearing at Lawrence of Arabia at that point and I think he assaulted him (I'm not a lawyer, but I know you don't have to touch someone to commit assault). We tried to talk him into continuing on the #17 tee, but in hindsight, Lawrence of Arabia was probably right to withdraw.


The way I saw the match play playoff is this...

The lower capper should get his strokes as they do not know how many holes will be played.  However, in all the Decisions I looked at - if the low-capper did not make his claim and agreed to a halve, then the match result stands.  I have concerns that the low-capper may have pressured the high-capper into the halve, but thats an etiquette issue - or is it?



Then the blow up.  Keep this in mind - Rob Roy had an incident last year as well.  His opponent had 15 clubs in his bag and Rob Roy teased him about potentially calling him on it.  He never did and won the match, but the guy with 15 clubs in the bag felt as if he was being called a cheater and was fearful Roy was spreading said 'rumor' - so he popped off an email to the entire club claiming the Rob Roy had no right to call him a cheat (which actually brought more attention to a situation all but swept under the rug).  Testosterone overload from such older gentlemen - sheesh  Wink

Anyway - I told him that Rob Roy receives a forfeit rules-wise, but felt there is a strong etiquette issue for such a 'friendly' tournament.    Thoughts about intimidating someone into forfeiting?  I think its a big issue, but cannot find any ruling to deal with it.



I humbly await your responses, and will receive them with great appreciation, adoration, and respect.  (except for Clive - he's a poopyhead).

« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 09:06:49 PM by rickhicks » Logged Return to Top

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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #1 on: July 28, 2007, 08:44:57 PM »

For fun!!!

Would be much easier to read without the asterickhicks.  Perhaps a Mortimer, Kermit, Lorenzo and Reginald substitution is in order.  Who the *fudge* is Marty anyway?

I shall shortly guzzle a quart of water in an attempt to sober up and provide a cogent opinion.  Unless RSL win/draw a man down.  Then I'll just drunker more.
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hobbit
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #2 on: July 28, 2007, 09:07:31 PM »

OK - names assigned (since I missed one, Marty is a real name)

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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #3 on: July 28, 2007, 09:27:32 PM »

Quote
9-5. How To Decide Ties in Handicap Competitions

The USGA recommends:

1. Match Play
     
A match that ends all square should be played off hole by hole until one side wins a hole. The playoff should start on the hole where the match began. In a handicap match, handicap strokes should be allowed as in the prescribed round.

You have it right IMO.

Quote
I have concerns that the low-capper may have pressured the high-capper into the halve, but thats an etiquette issue - or is it?

I don't think so - at least not under the rules.  The only possible penalty for a serious breach of etiquette is disqualification under 33-7.  I can't imagine the scenario you describe rising to that level.  It's *feces*ty gamesmanship but that's about it.  I'd just pay the cook to spit on the guy's hamburger and call it quits. 

Quote
Thoughts about intimidating someone into forfeiting?  I think its a big issue, but cannot find any ruling to deal with it.

Tough question but based on what I've seen/read I don't believe there's a in-match rules solution.  Having said that, I would, were I a committee member, suggest we have a chat with Rob Roy about his antics.  The committee has tons of "off-match" options available to them including chemical castration.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 09:31:03 PM by Uisce Beatha » Logged Return to Top

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Clive
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #4 on: July 28, 2007, 09:35:39 PM »

1. The higher handicapper gets his strokes just as he would if they were playing another 18.  (9-5(a)(i).)  Tell him to blame the course for stacking the #1 and #3 handicap holes in the front three.

Quote
Match Play
A match that ends all square should be played off hole by hole until one side wins a hole. The playoff should start on the hole where the match began. In a handicap match, handicap strokes should be allowed as in the prescribed round.

2. The Committee has discretion under 33-7 to DQ a player for a serious breach of etiquette.  Your (their) call whether Rob Roy's behavior crossed the line.  The Committee also sets the tone for what kind of behavior it will tolerate in tournament play.  I think you know where my vote would be cast, given your recounting (swearing, raised voices (I would assume), general antics to the point of freaking assault).

Quote
If a Committee considers that a player is guilty of a serious breach of etiquette, it may impose a penalty of disqualification under this Rule.
« Last Edit: July 28, 2007, 09:39:46 PM by Clive » Logged Return to Top
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #5 on: July 28, 2007, 09:45:06 PM »

Rick, please describe this assault.  You imply Liam Neeson didn't touch Peter the Tool but suggest assault was involved. 

I might change my opinion to jive with that of Clive but I think we need more details.
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hobbit
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2007, 04:27:46 AM »

Rick, please describe this assault.  You imply Liam Neeson didn't touch Peter the Tool but suggest assault was involved. 

I might change my opinion to jive with that of Clive but I think we need more details.

I was not there and cannot be sure - but its apparent that the bystander believes that not only sticks and stones can hurt you, but words as well.  Guess we'll have to defer to the lawyer on this one.  Verbal assault... such a thing, legally?

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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2007, 12:16:48 PM »

OK - updates......

Apparently I was mistaken and the first match was not recorded as a win for..... we'll call him Napoleon (the gentleman recounting the activities of the day).  They played it out and were awaiting a ruling as to the proper result, so in this case Marty is going to be awarded the match as he gets his strokes no matter how many playoff holes are played.

I have also been informed that Napoleon is a rather quirky and strange dude.  This leads my friend, and me, to believe that his 'assault' charge is likely bogus - even though Lawrence of Arabia felt disrespected enough to walk off.

Anyway, Rob Roy called my friend a few hours after the match (and before he got the email above from Napoleon).  He was trying to figure our why Lawrence of Arabia walked away.  Rob Roy's account is that he was being lenient with the rules and let Lawrence of Arabia get away without penalty on all of them, even though Rob Roy was 3 down at the time.  He also contends that he was cussing himself for missing that putt, and that none of it was directed at Lawrence of Arabia.  He does admit to getting a little loud about the infractions even though he let them slide - he even sent an apology email to Lawrence of Arabia for that.  He was also asking my friend 'is it me?' - since he had that incident last year too.

I should also say I've met Rob Roy, as I used to be in the same club.  He's a nice guy that likes to have fun.... until the competition starts.  He's one of those guys that gets the ol' spirit up when competing.  So, I believe that he certainly thinks he was more than fair with the rulings (he is so confident that he stated Napoleon and Marty would back him up) - but I'll bet he was not very respectful in his approach.  And giving strokes to Lawrence of Arabia and being down by 3 (at one point) probably had him seething inside (and perhaps outside as well).

I should also mention that while not a great golfer, Lawrence of Arabia is a well liked and respected guy in the club.  If the incident caused him to walk away, it was likely pretty disrespectful.  My friend said he would try get them together for a pint and hash it out.  I'll bet Rob Roy would be plenty apologetic about any yelling and cussing, but he's not going to let the rules violations slide - then again Rob Roy probably doesn't believe it to be as bad as others saw it.  Likely a little denial.

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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #8 on: July 30, 2007, 09:16:26 AM »

Seems like a bit of a contradiction that Rob Roy ignores rules violations and then freaks out about them especially considering his extremely competitive nature.  Given the representation of his personality I should think he'd no way let the violations on #12 and #13 go uncalled.  Something seems amiss.  Don't Know

Wanna be careful about 1-3 violations here too.  It doesn't sound like there was an agreement to waive the rules but I believe there's a fine line there. 

Quote
1-3/4 Failure of Players to Apply Known Penalty

Q. In a match, a player discovers at the 2nd hole that he has 15 clubs in his bag contrary to Rule 4-4a, but his opponent refuses to apply the penalty. The extra club is declared out of play and the match continues. The Committee disqualifies both players. Is this correct?

A. Yes. Since the players agreed to waive the penalty, they should be disqualified under Rule 1-3.
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #9 on: July 30, 2007, 10:27:53 AM »

Quote
* On #12 Lawrence of Arabia teed-up a few inches in front of the markers. Rob Roy called him on it before he played the shot. Lawrence of Arabia apologized and properly re-teed. Rob Roy was agitated and commented that Lawrence of Arabia should know the rules.

* On #13 Lawrence of Arabia healed his club in the hazard. Rob Roy again pointed it out before Lawrence of Arabia played the shot, but after the shot was played Rob Roy was increasingly agitated and complained about it.

* On #16 Lawrence of Arabia putted first to about three feet past the hole. Lawrence of Arabia prepared to finish up, but Rob Roy objected that he was out, which he was. Lawrence of Arabia apologized and marked his ball. Roy was irritated that he had to tell Lawrence of Arabia that he was out.
Doesn't seem to me that Rob Roy "ignored" any of these three instances; he piped up each time.

Re improper teeing: I've seen guys do that.  Every goofs once in a great while -- I think I've even done it once, but a friend pointed it out before I hot the tee shot.

Re: grounding the club in a hazard: is that how you mean it (i.e., soled the club at address)?  Or did he just touch the ground with it as he was standing or walking?  If the former, did Lawrence apply the (loss of hole) penalty?

Re: putting out of turn: big freakin' deal.  This is another one that guys frequently do because they're so used to stroke play.  Although it's technically not his turn, does it really make any difference?  Personally, if the match were close and the putt at all challenging, I'd let the guy putt.  If he misses, great for me; if he makes and then I miss mine, I have the option of making him re-putt ... with pressure this time.  (Not that I'd do it, but strategically speaking ... )
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #10 on: July 30, 2007, 11:40:49 AM »

I used ignore to represent the fact that he didn't apply the penalty on #13.

There is no penalty per se for #12 and #16.  On #16 he spoke up and it wasn't looked upon as nice.  If he'd kept quite and after a made putt had him replay he would have been tagged negatively too.  No win situation it seems.  Of course, we weren't there and perhaps he was over the top with his reaction. 

I can see the irritation aspect for sure although perhaps not a vocal display of such.  It's the opponent's responsibility to know the rules.  Rob had to basically teach Lawrence the rules as they went along.  I do believe that would be annoying in a serious club tourney.  I bet in the future Rob will just take holes on rules violations, win 6&5 and head off to the clubhouse.  Lesson learned.

Maybe Lawrence was gaming Rob by stressing his well-known competitive nature to the point he flips out.  Smart man that Lawrence.   Devil
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #11 on: July 30, 2007, 11:42:57 AM »

Maybe Lawrence was gaming Rob by stressing his well-known competitive nature to the point he flips out.  Smart man that Lawrence.   Devil
I was with you ... right up to the part where Lawrence walks off the course and forfeits.

 Wink

Just laying the groundwork, I'll bet.
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2007, 01:29:32 PM »

Maybe Lawrence was gaming Rob by stressing his well-known competitive nature to the point he flips out.  Smart man that Lawrence.   Devil
I was with you ... right up to the part where Lawrence walks off the course and forfeits.

 Wink

Just laying the groundwork, I'll bet.

LOL.  Smarty pants.
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Re: Match Play tourney going awry.....
« Reply #13 on: September 13, 2007, 12:00:14 AM »

Hi to all and just one question re the match play situation.On our Aussie cards the stroke and match play indexes are quite different.Would guess this is to avoid just such a problem as mentioned.Have to think that you would follow the same sort of system.Is this the case?
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