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A local tragedy on all fronts.

 
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birdymaker
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A local tragedy on all fronts.
« on: December 03, 2009, 08:22:15 AM »



http://www.freep.com/arti...3/NEWS03/912030561/?imw=Y
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women are like tornados. In the beginning there's a lot of sucking and blowing. In the end, the car's gone, the house is gone..
stroh
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2009, 08:35:36 AM »

Sadness.

I have to wonder, though since they are minors and it said that the mother refused the plea deals, I wonder if they can get some sort of appeal or reconsideration when they are no longer minors since it sounds like they "had no say".
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birdymaker
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #2 on: December 03, 2009, 08:39:11 AM »

Sadness.

I have to wonder, though since they are minors and it said that the mother refused the plea deals, I wonder if they can get some sort of appeal or reconsideration when they are no longer minors since it sounds like they "had no say".

My wife and I were wondering the exact same thing.
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women are like tornados. In the beginning there's a lot of sucking and blowing. In the end, the car's gone, the house is gone..
Aske
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #3 on: December 03, 2009, 08:50:25 AM »

Sadness.

I have to wonder, though since they are minors and it said that the mother refused the plea deals, I wonder if they can get some sort of appeal or reconsideration when they are no longer minors since it sounds like they "had no say".

doubtful...  it's along the (opposite ... granted...) lines of...
so if some parents file a stat rape case against a guy who is 19 and doing their 16 year old daughter, when she turns 18 can she have the charges dropped because her "say" wasn't heard at the time and she "loved him and knew what she was doing" and all that? 
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Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century.
--  Chimpy McFlightsuit, CEO of Bu$hco Industries of 'Merka
stroh
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #4 on: December 03, 2009, 08:53:24 AM »

Sadness.

I have to wonder, though since they are minors and it said that the mother refused the plea deals, I wonder if they can get some sort of appeal or reconsideration when they are no longer minors since it sounds like they "had no say".

doubtful...  it's along the (opposite ... granted...) lines of...
so if some parents file a stat rape case against a guy who is 19 and doing their 16 year old daughter, when she turns 18 can she have the charges dropped because her "say" wasn't heard at the time and she "loved him and knew what she was doing" and all that? 


I disagree to an extent.  In your scenario, she is the victim and her age is only relevant to the nature of the crime.  His age is relevant not only to the nature of the crime, but also as an adult, charged and convicted.  No one on his defense had the opportunity to decline a plea deal without his consent because he was not of legal age.
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Aske
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #5 on: December 03, 2009, 09:03:01 AM »

Sadness.

I have to wonder, though since they are minors and it said that the mother refused the plea deals, I wonder if they can get some sort of appeal or reconsideration when they are no longer minors since it sounds like they "had no say".

doubtful...  it's along the (opposite ... granted...) lines of...
so if some parents file a stat rape case against a guy who is 19 and doing their 16 year old daughter, when she turns 18 can she have the charges dropped because her "say" wasn't heard at the time and she "loved him and knew what she was doing" and all that? 


I disagree to an extent.  In your scenario, she is the victim and her age is only relevant to the nature of the crime.  His age is relevant not only to the nature of the crime, but also as an adult, charged and convicted.  No one on his defense had the opportunity to decline a plea deal without his consent because he was not of legal age.

My point was, the courts have a longstanding history of empowering the legal and court-viewed adult guardian of minors, on both* sides of trial issues, to act on behalf of said minors (especially in instances where said minors apparently have "mental illnesses").  Getting verdicts/etc overturned on either side of a trial because the minor feels their wishes weren't listened to is pretty much impossible AFAIK; you'd pretty much in this case have to find either evidence of actual retardation or criminally motivated malfeasance in the moms' actions...  as sad as it is, "stupidity" or "arrogance", etc ... doesn't cut it....?   
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Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century.
--  Chimpy McFlightsuit, CEO of Bu$hco Industries of 'Merka
stroh
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2009, 09:06:00 AM »

Sadness.

I have to wonder, though since they are minors and it said that the mother refused the plea deals, I wonder if they can get some sort of appeal or reconsideration when they are no longer minors since it sounds like they "had no say".

doubtful...  it's along the (opposite ... granted...) lines of...
so if some parents file a stat rape case against a guy who is 19 and doing their 16 year old daughter, when she turns 18 can she have the charges dropped because her "say" wasn't heard at the time and she "loved him and knew what she was doing" and all that? 


I disagree to an extent.  In your scenario, she is the victim and her age is only relevant to the nature of the crime.  His age is relevant not only to the nature of the crime, but also as an adult, charged and convicted.  No one on his defense had the opportunity to decline a plea deal without his consent because he was not of legal age.

My point was, the courts have a longstanding history of empowering the legal and court-viewed adult guardian of minors, on both* sides of trial issues, to act on behalf of said minors (especially in instances where said minors apparently have "mental illnesses").  Getting verdicts/etc overturned on either side of a trial because the minor feels their wishes weren't listened to is pretty much impossible AFAIK; you'd pretty much in this case have to find either evidence of actual retardation or criminally motivated malfeasance in the moms' actions...  as sad as it is, "stupidity" or "arrogance", etc ... doesn't cut it....?   


Fair enough.  It would be interesting to know the details involved.  After the plea deal was refused by the mom, could there have been an opportunity to divorce?
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Aske
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #7 on: December 03, 2009, 09:11:49 AM »


Fair enough.  It would be interesting to know the details involved.  After the plea deal was refused by the mom, could there have been an opportunity to divorce?

My guess, per the article (saying the attorneys opposed this decision of the moms) is if there were any* legal options to do so, and the attorneys thought the plea deal was a better option (sure conviction ahead based on evidence or confession, etc) , they would have done so--- it is in their job ethics to do anything possible on behalf of the client after all, right ?  If there were legal options, and the attorneys missed them, then of course they'll be sued/sanctioned down the road....

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Quote
Russia has invaded a sovereign neighboring state and threatens a democratic government elected by its people. Such an action is unacceptable in the 21st century.
--  Chimpy McFlightsuit, CEO of Bu$hco Industries of 'Merka
stroh
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #8 on: December 03, 2009, 09:16:06 AM »

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birdymaker
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #9 on: December 03, 2009, 02:48:24 PM »


Fair enough.  It would be interesting to know the details involved.  After the plea deal was refused by the mom, could there have been an opportunity to divorce?

My guess, per the article (saying the attorneys opposed this decision of the moms) is if there were any* legal options to do so, and the attorneys thought the plea deal was a better option (sure conviction ahead based on evidence or confession, etc) , they would have done so--- it is in their job ethics to do anything possible on behalf of the client after all, right ?  If there were legal options, and the attorneys missed them, then of course they'll be sued/sanctioned down the road....
It seems they may have grounds for appeal. The way things have sounded in the local media the mothers gave the kids no choice as to whether or not to take the plea deal fully believing the whole time that this was some kind of prosecutors plot against their little angels and that there was no way they could be convicted. The mothers thought the prosecutors were offering a plea deal (which is pretty unheard of here) as a sign of weakness in their case. Talk about queens of denial.
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women are like tornados. In the beginning there's a lot of sucking and blowing. In the end, the car's gone, the house is gone..
Seamus
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2009, 10:08:31 AM »

Sentence seems about right to me. In Washington they wouldn't go to prison right away anyway, they would be in a juvenile facility until they are 18.

Quote
"Mr. McCloud ... you killed two men who did you no wrong," Andrews said as McCloud's mother and sister wept quietly in the courtroom. "At your age, going to the penitentiary is difficult. Don't make any friends. Keep quiet. Follow the rules. And hold your head up high."
Good advice.

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The way things have sounded in the local media the mothers gave the kids no choice as to whether or not to take the plea deal
Technically they don't have a choice, they're minors. Media sucks anyway.

Quote
fully believing the whole time that this was some kind of prosecutors plot against their little angels and that there was no way they could be convicted.
Crap shoot, Moms chose wrong, live with it, they're at least still alive.

Don't forget that "Life" is not "Life Without Parole". these "little angels" will be up for parole in 15 maybe 20 years, I hope they work on themselves and think every day (all 7300 of them) about what they have done.
« Last Edit: December 05, 2009, 10:16:01 AM by Seamus » Logged Return to Top
birdymaker
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2009, 10:56:26 AM »


Don't forget that "Life" is not "Life Without Parole". these "little angels" will be up for parole in 15 maybe 20 years, I hope they work on themselves and think every day (all 7300 of them) about what they have done.

Not in Michigan. Life is exactly life without parole. My kids will be paying for these kids till the day they die.
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women are like tornados. In the beginning there's a lot of sucking and blowing. In the end, the car's gone, the house is gone..
Seamus
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2009, 03:41:27 PM »


Don't forget that "Life" is not "Life Without Parole". these "little angels" will be up for parole in 15 maybe 20 years, I hope they work on themselves and think every day (all 7300 of them) about what they have done.

Not in Michigan. Life is exactly life without parole. My kids will be paying for these kids till the day they die.
Just playing devil's advocate but what are your choices, Michigan doesn't have the death penalty, does it?.
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birdymaker
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2009, 04:15:35 PM »


Don't forget that "Life" is not "Life Without Parole". these "little angels" will be up for parole in 15 maybe 20 years, I hope they work on themselves and think every day (all 7300 of them) about what they have done.

Not in Michigan. Life is exactly life without parole. My kids will be paying for these kids till the day they die.
Just playing devil's advocate but what are your choices, Michigan doesn't have the death penalty, does it?.
Nope. These kids will spend 60 years in prison solely based on their parents ignorance. Not that they would have gotten parole in 15 years or would deserve it. From what i have seen in 2nd degree cases they do at least 10 years past the minimum.
But you hit the nail on the head. If you're gonna "warehouse" someone for 60 years just put em down and get it over with. Or change the law and make parole a possibility at some point. We have at least a half a dozen cases a year where a teen is sentenced to life without parole just locally here. There are currently 307 people serving life without parole in Michigan that were under 18 when sentenced.
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women are like tornados. In the beginning there's a lot of sucking and blowing. In the end, the car's gone, the house is gone..
Seamus
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Re: A local tragedy on all fronts.
« Reply #14 on: December 05, 2009, 05:23:31 PM »

Washington State went thru a major sentence reform act. I think it was around 1999. These kids committing this crime,  convicted as juveniles would have done maybe 5 years. They could however be convicted as adults (prosecutors choice). Murder 1 minimum sentence 20 years (240-320 months) and parole eligible. Murder 2 minimum 10 years (123-220 months) and parole eligible. Washington State also uses a scoring system, the more crimes/seriousness = the more time you get.

Like your title says though, a tragedy on all fronts, maybe the most tragic is this generation of throw away kids we have. No regard for life, others or their own. No respect. No moral compass. It's sad.  Sad
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