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Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter

 
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Clive
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Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« on: February 15, 2007, 09:02:38 AM »

Suppose one of the weights falls out of my glorious "Clive" putter, which fact I discover during the round.  Consequences?  Options?

Quote
4-3 Damaged Clubs: Repair and Replacement
a. Damage in Normal Course of Play
If, during a stipulated round, a player’s club is damaged in the normal course of play, he may:
(i) use the club in its damaged state for the remainder of the stipulated round; or(ii) without unduly delaying play, repair it or have it repaired; or(iii) as an additional option available only if the club is unfit for play, replace the damaged club with any club. The replacement of a club must not unduly delay play and must not be made by borrowing any club selected for play by any other person playing on the course. PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE 4-3a:
See Penalty Statement for Rule 4-4a or b, and c.
b. Damage Other Than in Normal Course of Play
If, during a stipulated round, a player’s club is damaged other than in the normal course of play rendering it non-conforming or changing its playing characteristics, the club must not subsequently be used or replaced during the round.

4-3/1 Meaning of Damage Sustained in “Normal Course of Play”
Q. In Rule 4-3a, what is meant by the term “normal course of play”?
A. The term “normal course of play” is intended to cover all reasonable acts but specifically excludes cases of abuse.
In addition to making a stroke, practice swing or practice stroke, examples of acts that are in the “normal course of play” include the following:
•  removing or replacing a club in the bag;
•  using a club to search for or retrieve a ball;
•  leaning on a club while waiting to play, teeing a ball or removing a ball from the hole; or
•  accidentally dropping a club.
Examples of acts that are not in the “normal course of play” include the following:
•  throwing a club in anger or otherwise;
•  ‘ slamming’ a club into a bag; or
•  intentionally striking something (e.g., the ground or a tree) with the club other than during a stroke, practice swing or practice stroke. (Revised)

[edited to pare the quoted matter down to what seems to be relevant]
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 09:19:51 AM by Clive » Logged Return to Top
spacey
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #1 on: February 15, 2007, 09:07:30 AM »

Quote

4-2 Playing Characteristics Changed and Foreign Material
a. Playing Characteristics Changed
During a stipulated round, the playing characteristics of a club must not be purposely changed by adjustment or by any other means...

...4-3 Damaged Clubs: Repair and Replacement
a. Damage in Normal Course of Play
If, during a stipulated round, a player’s club is damaged in the normal course of play, he may:
(i) use the club in its damaged state for the remainder of the stipulated round; or(ii) without unduly delaying play, repair it or have it repaired..


Okay, I'm not a huge rules Nazi, but it seems to me that those three things pretty much cover said scenario. No? (Assuming repair your club includes being able to replace the lost weight with an identical weight.)
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Clive
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #2 on: February 15, 2007, 09:10:39 AM »

I guess my concern focuses on whether it's 4-3a or 4-3b.  Unless I see the weight drop out, how would I know whether it was "during the normal course of play" or not?
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Fuzzy
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #3 on: February 15, 2007, 09:17:46 AM »

Okay, I'm not a huge rules Nazi, but it seems to me that those three things pretty much cover said scenario. No? (Assuming repair your club includes being able to replace the lost weight with an identical weight.)


Godwin's Law!
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spacey
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #4 on: February 15, 2007, 09:21:02 AM »

I guess my concern focuses on whether it's 4-3a or 4-3b.  Unless I see the weight drop out, how would I know whether it was "during the normal course of play" or not?

Wouldn't "during the normal course of play" include anything that may normally take place during the round: removing from bag, riding in the bag on the cart, etc?

I guess my confusion is, why would you need to see it fall out in order to be able to make the determination? If it was there before you started the round and came out as a result of a normal (shall we call it) "golfing related activity," it seems like it would be covered under 4-3a. If you bang it against a tree or something and you lose a weight then 4-3b might come into play (of course putter abuse is a normal "golfing related activity" for me), but short of outright abuse of the putter, I can't imagine what might cause a weight to drop out that wouldn't qualify. Unless, of course, I'm incorrect in assuming that hauling the club around doesn't qualify as "normal course of play." (Like I said, not a big rules Nazi, so I don't know this type of minutiae.)
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 09:23:01 AM by spaceage » Logged Return to Top
Uisce Beatha
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #5 on: February 15, 2007, 09:50:55 AM »

If the weights can "fall out" it strikes me you have other problems under the rules.  From Appendix II:

Quote
b. Adjustability
Woods and irons must not be designed to be adjustable except for weight. Putters may be designed to be adjustable for weight and some other forms of adjustability are also permitted. All methods of adjustment permitted by the Rules require that:

(i) the adjustment cannot be readily made;

(ii) all adjustable parts are firmly fixed and there is no reasonable likelihood of them working loose during a round; and

(iii) all configurations of adjustment conform with the Rules.

The disqualification penalty for purposely changing the playing characteristics of a club during a stipulated round (Rule 4-2a) applies to all clubs including a putter.

This is a kinder, gentler place and I really am not trying to start something but I've always wondered this about Mentor's putters.  I asked Chin about it right after he first started posting on FIGS and he assured me all was in order.  He seemed a bit defensive at the time (perhaps a bad inference) and I let it go.

From http://www.mentorsportstech.com/technology.aspx

Quote
The components are held in place by friction, so they can be removed and replaced in a matter of seconds.

So I don't know.  Seems like a problem to me. 

BTW, if this discussion is unwelcome or unwarranted I will immediately delete my post.  All it will take is one person, Chin or otherwise, feeling I should.  Let me know.
« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 09:53:57 AM by Uisce Beatha » Logged Return to Top

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Dirtyboy
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #6 on: February 15, 2007, 10:05:40 AM »

Maybe you should epoxy the weights and screws in place, thus it will not be easily adjustable.  I'll take my chances with my duet, screws have never come lose.
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spacey
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #7 on: February 15, 2007, 10:06:48 AM »

When I had a Triad II for a bit, it didn't seem to me that it was really all that likely that the weights would just work themselves loose, unless the screws weren't tight to begin with. As for adjustments being "readily made," I'm not certain I know exactly what that means, but I don't really know what "plain in shape" means anymore either.

IMO, "on the fly" adjustments of the Mentor putters really aren't any more "readily made" than any other club with removable weights, assuming you have the tools and the weights in your bag. It seems like "readily made adjustment" would be more like a tool-free type deal. Given that this is really my first foray into a real rules discussion, I'm just going on a hunch here. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm here to learn.
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #8 on: February 15, 2007, 10:08:29 AM »

In an effort to reach 20 posts so I can smite Blader, let me add that the Mentorsports putter is not as easily changed as an R7 driver which is legal on every tour.  You only loosen one screw to change weights on them.
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spacey
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #9 on: February 15, 2007, 10:13:21 AM »

In an effort to reach 20 posts so I can smite Blader, let me add that the Mentorsports putter is not as easily changed as an R7 driver which is legal on every tour.  You only loosen one screw to change weights on them.

I'm wondering how the "readily made" discussion might apply to the Wishon 715CLC driver, that has an adjustable "arm" inside that appears to simply require a quick partial turn with a special wrench to adjust. Weights don't even need to be removed to adjust from fade bias to draw bias.


* 715clc_10-5-a.jpg (9.69 KB, 250x250 - viewed 47 times.)
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Clive
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #10 on: February 15, 2007, 10:45:32 AM »

Adjustments cannot be readily made if you need a special tool: weird TaylorMade wrench, Allen key.  The adjustability isn't an issue.  (Spaceage, you were right on this point.)

Re: a weight falling out, I can imagine that I just under-torque the little bolts.  Maybe I have the bag on a power cart and riding around the course is like something out of Rat Patrol.  Let's just stick with my hypo and assume the weights can come out unintentionally.

Walking with the bag on your shoulder, or riding with it strapped to the back of th cart, might well be considered not use within the normal course of play.  I dunno.
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #11 on: February 15, 2007, 10:50:25 AM »

I don't have access to the product but what you're saying about bolts and torquing doesn't seem to jive with the quote from the Mentor Sports site I cited above. 

Which is it?  Bolts (by implication threaded?) or components are held in place by friction?
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spacey
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #12 on: February 15, 2007, 10:53:24 AM »

I don't have access to the product but what you're saying about bolts and torquing doesn't seem to jive with the quote from the Mentor Sports site I cited above. 

Which is it?  Bolts (by implication threaded?) or components are held in place by friction?

The weights and the weight ports themselves are not threaded. The weights are held into place by bolts that are tightened down creating pressure between the weights and the ports, i.e.- the bolts do not thread into the weights, but rather clamp down on them to hold them into place. (If that makes any sense at all.)
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Clive
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #13 on: February 15, 2007, 11:03:15 AM »

I was in a hurry and I didn't focus it well (trying to see black on black sharply), but here:

« Last Edit: February 15, 2007, 02:01:42 PM by Clive » Logged Return to Top
Uisce Beatha
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Re: Weights in Sweet Mentorsports Putter
« Reply #14 on: February 15, 2007, 11:08:47 AM »

I don't have access to the product but what you're saying about bolts and torquing doesn't seem to jive with the quote from the Mentor Sports site I cited above. 

Which is it?  Bolts (by implication threaded?) or components are held in place by friction?

The weights and the weight ports themselves are not threaded. The weights are held into place by bolts that are tightened down creating pressure between the weights and the ports, i.e.- the bolts do not thread into the weights, but rather clamp down on them to hold them into place. (If that makes any sense at all.)

Makes perfect sense.  Basically a set screw, yes?

If that's the case I don't see the weights violating the adjustibility restrictions.  Especially if the set screw requires a special wrench, allen wrench, whatever.  If the set screw can be removed with a coin or something there's still a problem (by decision I think although I couldn't find it on a quick search).
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"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi
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