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Actual, real life rules question...

 
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MFAWG
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Actual, real life rules question...
« on: May 29, 2007, 10:40:50 PM »

So, we're playing the 11th at Maplewood, and I lose my tee shot a tad right.

It ends up sitting next to a cartpath, inside a lateral hazard but very, very playable.

My stance was on the cart path, and my playing partner seemed to think I could drop (no penalty) as a result.

I played out of the hazard (without grounding the club) thinking that since it was in the hazard, an unplayable or drop would entail a 2 stroke penalty, regardless of the interference of the cartpath.

Could I have dropped with no penalty?
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Spanky
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #1 on: May 30, 2007, 06:16:43 AM »

I'm no rules expert but I think if the ball is in a hazard that trumps the cart path. My guess would be if you drop that's a stroke.
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MFAWG
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #2 on: May 30, 2007, 07:29:27 AM »

That was my thinking too...
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Seamus
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #3 on: May 30, 2007, 07:43:58 AM »

Can you drop free of the cart path but still in the hazard?

*edit* the cart path is INSIDE a lateral hazard?
« Last Edit: May 30, 2007, 08:27:11 AM by Seamus McDuff » Logged Return to Top
Uisce Beatha
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #4 on: May 30, 2007, 08:12:40 AM »

A cart path is an immovable obstruction. 

Quote
24-2

b. Relief

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:

...

Note 1: If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), the player may not take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction. The player must play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.
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MFAWG
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #5 on: May 30, 2007, 12:14:28 PM »

Can you drop free of the cart path but still in the hazard?

*edit* the cart path is INSIDE a lateral hazard?


No, the right edge of the cart path is painted as the boundary of the hazard, with the left edge bordering the rough and fairway.

Uisce found the  answer right here:


Quote
24-2

b. Relief

Except when the ball is in a water hazard or a lateral water hazard, a player may take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction as follows:

...

Note 1: If a ball is in a water hazard (including a lateral water hazard), the player may not take relief from interference by an immovable obstruction. The player must play the ball as it lies or proceed under Rule 26-1.


26.1:
Quote
It is a question of fact whether a ball lost after having been struck toward a water hazard is lost inside or outside the hazard. In order to treat the ball as lost in the hazard, there must be reasonable evidence that the ball lodged in it. In the absence of such evidence, the ball must be treated as a lost ball and Rule 27 applies.
If a ball is in or is lost in a water hazard (whether the ball lies in water or not), the player may under penalty of one stroke:
(a) Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or(b) Drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped; or (c) As additional options available only if the ball last crossed the margin of a lateral water hazard, drop a ball outside the water hazard within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than (i) the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard or (ii) a point on the opposite margin of the water hazard equidistant from the hole. The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under this Rule.
(Prohibited actions when ball is in hazard see Rule 13-4.)
(Ball moving in water in a water hazard see Rule 14-6.)


Now, for some reason I thought if I dropped outside the hazard it would be a two stroke penalty, but I guess I'm wrong.

Maybe the 2 strokes is for bunkers only?

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Clive
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #6 on: May 30, 2007, 06:53:02 PM »

Now, for some reason I thought if I dropped outside the hazard it would be a two stroke penalty, but I guess I'm wrong.

Maybe the 2 strokes is for bunkers only?
You might be mixing your two-stroke-penalty with your two-clublengths-relief.
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MFAWG
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #7 on: May 30, 2007, 07:20:58 PM »

Now, for some reason I thought if I dropped outside the hazard it would be a two stroke penalty, but I guess I'm wrong.

Maybe the 2 strokes is for bunkers only?
You might be mixing your two-stroke-penalty with your two-clublengths-relief.

No, I understand the 2 club lengths. (Basically: Free relief is 1, relief with a penalty is 2).

I thought I saw a thread on FIGS where if you took an unplayable in a bunker, the ball had to be dropped in the bunker for a 1 stroke penalty, but if you elected to drop outside the bunker it would be 2.

That was my confusion.

It worked out in the end: I made a bogey 5 on a hole I'm happy to walk away with anything less than 6, and 7 is for SURE not out of the question.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2007, 06:53:34 AM »

No, I understand the 2 club lengths. (Basically: Free relief is 1, relief with a penalty is 2).

I thought I saw a thread on FIGS where if you took an unplayable in a bunker, the ball had to be dropped in the bunker for a 1 stroke penalty, but if you elected to drop outside the bunker it would be 2.

That's right.  The proper procedure under rule 28 (b) or (c) is to drop within the bunker under penalty of one stroke.  If the player drops outside the bunker, other than under option (a), he is in violation of rule 28 and is penalized two strokes.  Then you get into that whole playing from the wrong place business and it gets into "someone call atticus" territory very quickly.

Note: Applies to bunkers only.  Does not apply to WH and LWH.  Rule 28 does not work for you there although 26-1 gives you basically the same options.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 06:59:27 AM by Uisce Beatha » Logged Return to Top

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MFAWG
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #9 on: May 31, 2007, 08:26:36 PM »

Got ya...

The whole point of the original play was that the ball was actually in a very good lie, other than being in a hazard and having to stand on the cart path to play it.


Quote
Rule 28. Ball Unplayable

Definitions
All defined terms are in italicsand are listed alphabetically in the Definitions section.
The player may deem his ball unplayable at any place on the course except when the ball is in a water hazard. The player is the sole judge as to whether his ball is unplayable.
If the player deems his ball to be unplayable, he must, under penalty of one stroke:
(a) Play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5); or (b) Drop a ball behind the point where the ball lay, keeping that point directly between the holeand the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind that point the ball may be dropped; or (c) Drop a ball within two club-lengths of the spot where the ball lay, but not nearer the hole. Penalty for Breach of Rule:
Match play Loss of hole; Stroke play Two strokes.
If the unplayable ball is in a bunker, the player may proceed under Clause a, b or c. If he elects to proceed under Clause b or c, a ball must be dropped in the bunker.
The ball may be lifted and cleaned when proceeding under this Rule.



You know, I've never really considered option A, which is the following scenario:

Chunk or blade 125 yard 2nd shot into face of monstrous, muddy azz Seattle bunker, declare ball unplayable and hit 4th shot from 125, as opposed to hitting 4 from out of the bunker after dropping.

That's what provisionals are for, right?

That's why these threads are good...
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 08:34:28 PM by MFAWG » Logged Return to Top

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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #10 on: May 31, 2007, 08:36:41 PM »

Chunk or blade 125 yard 2nd shot into face of monstrous bunker, declare ball unplayable and hit 4th shot from 125, as opposed to hitting 4 from out of the bunker after dropping.

That's what provisionals are for, right?

Unfortunately, a provisional can't be used in this scenario.  You can announce and play one of course, but once the first ball proves not to be (a) lost or (b) out of bounds it is the ball in play.  You can declare it unplayable at that point but under no circumstances can you short circuit the provisional ball into play.
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MFAWG
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #11 on: May 31, 2007, 08:44:06 PM »

Chunk or blade 125 yard 2nd shot into face of monstrous bunker, declare ball unplayable and hit 4th shot from 125, as opposed to hitting 4 from out of the bunker after dropping.

That's what provisionals are for, right?

Unfortunately, a provisional can't be used in this scenario.  You can announce and play one of course, but once the first ball proves not to be (a) lost or (b) out of bounds it is the ball in play.  You can declare it unplayable at that point but under no circumstances can you short circuit the provisional ball into play.

Ah, so I'd actually have to perform 'The Walk Of Shame' after declaring the ball unplayable?

Not a problem. 44 year old men have very little shame left, particularly on the golf course...
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #12 on: May 31, 2007, 09:05:07 PM »

Ah, so I'd actually have to perform 'The Walk Of Shame' after declaring the ball unplayable?

Under the ROG, yes.  Assuming you wanted to proceed under option 28(a) that is.

This is actually similar to an aspect of the rules that I purposefully violate from time to time.  On Spacey's nemesis hole (par three with water front, left and behind) it's very easy to go long and have your ball disappear.  It might be behind the green in the short rough, in a bunker, or in the drink.  Since it's a regular water hazard there's no drop possible on the green side of the water.  To play completely within the rules you'd have to go up to the green, find out and, if necessary, come back to the tee side of the water.  Don't say it Clive; we'll have no "reasonable evidence" discussion in this thread thank you very much.  Wink

In this sort of scenario we'll at times play a "26-1 provisional".  If we find out the original ball went in the water we wave a magic wand and the second ball becomes the ball in play as if we had proceeded under 26-1a and that was the result of the appropriate shot. 

Completely illegal, wrong, no excuse, and so forth.  However, it beats having your head pounded in by the group behind you on a busy Sunday morning.

This is an example where the "one size fits all" characteristic of the rules presents a dilemma.  You want to do the right thing but the nature of casual, non-tournament golf makes it difficult/impossible.  We end up recording an X for the hole (par + strokes) under section 4-2 of the USGA Handicap System Manual so there's no sandbagging aspect involved but the whole thing leaves a bad taste in my mouth.  There's simply no good solution under the ROG.  I guess I'm, for the most part, a "rules purist" but I'd never advocate wading into a confrontation in your pursuit of the integrity of the game

We wouldn't do this in any sort of competition other than our normal one-v-one bet for a beer.  For example, if the scenario arose during a GHRC round I'd either take the walk of shame or lose the hole.

You may pelt me with rocks now.
« Last Edit: May 31, 2007, 09:12:20 PM by Uisce Beatha » Logged Return to Top

"If you're darker than a caramel, Reverend Al speaks for you." - Aasif Mandvi
"Well, you can tell by the way I use my walk, I'm a woman's man: no time to talk." - stroh
MFAWG
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #13 on: May 31, 2007, 11:01:57 PM »

Solely for the sake of argument:

1) I hit 2nd shot from 125, and watch it sail into the face of said muddy azz bunker, and stay embedded under the lip.

Can I declare the ball unplayable right then, and hit from the same spot taking the appropriate penalty ('Drop 3, hit 4)?

Actually, you can always do this, but the first ball is 'Dead' no matter the circumstance, right?
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Re: Actual, real life rules question...
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2007, 06:17:56 AM »

If I understand what Uisce had been saying (and the little I know of the rules) once you declare a ball unplayable you can drop. I think where you are confusing things is the difference between unplayable and lost. In your scenario the ball is unplayable, not lost (unless it is so buried that it is completely covered with that "mud"). You can pick up the unplayable ball and drop it instead of a new ball.

Determining a ball unplayable from 120 yards out I guess is possible but sounds more like a Tin Cup moment. There is nothing that says you can't since you are taking the penalty stroke (and in match play lose the hole).
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