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Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting

 
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Uisce Beatha
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Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« on: July 26, 2007, 02:07:06 PM »

Frank Thomas speaks...

Quote
However, an off-the-shelf set with the right flex shaft and possibly a slightly adjusted lie angle (if necessary) is all the fitting most of us need.

...

The real concern I have is that many people who tell you that you need to be fitted really just want to sell you a new set of clubs when they could easily adjust your existing set instead. The fact that drivers are not designed to be custom fitted tells me that ”one size fits all” actually works most of the time.

...

But really, Rob, the performance differences are extremely small between custom-fitted clubs and an off-the-shelf set.

Wowzers.   Shocked Shocked Shocked Disgusted
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #1 on: July 26, 2007, 02:11:10 PM »

Does anyone need to be custom fit? Not really. Would everyone benefit from it? I'd be bold enough to say that more would than would not. Frank Thomas is a windbag.
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stroh
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #2 on: July 26, 2007, 04:43:22 PM »

You know?  I've been more than tempted, but lack the ambition to put together a post/argument on this for years.

I say the whole (well maybe not whole) club fitting idea/(I can't think of the term) is nothing more than a sham, and a shakedown.

I call   BS          caveat:  Granted.  If a dude is 5'2"  with a swing speed of 38 miles per hour, I know an off the rack "standard" isn't for him.

Here's the deal.  (My Deal.)  Chicken or the egg.  Simple.  Fix the swing?  Or Fit the swing?

Other than Size............   "Club Fittings"  are the car sales man's rustproofing.


Fire away.   Punch Balls

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1puttpar
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #3 on: July 26, 2007, 06:01:40 PM »

You know?  I've been more than tempted, but lack the ambition to put together a post/argument on this for years.

I say the whole (well maybe not whole) club fitting idea/(I can't think of the term) is nothing more than a sham, and a shakedown.

I call   BS          caveat:  Granted.  If a dude is 5'2"  with a swing speed of 38 miles per hour, I know an off the rack "standard" isn't for him.

Here's the deal.  (My Deal.)  Chicken or the egg.  Simple.  Fix the swing?  Or Fit the swing?

Other than Size............   "Club Fittings"  are the car sales man's rustproofing.


Fire away.   Punch Balls



Well, I make my living by fitting and custom building clubs, so my response may seem self serving,

BUT

Either I can or cannot help someone with custom fitting.  If it is a swing flaw issue, I refer them to a PGA Professional for lessons.  If I see equipment issues, there are usually alternatives.  It could be as simple as bending the irons to the correct lie angle, correcting the length of the club, or myriad other possibilities.  If I think the existing club(s) are the problem, we discuss what the options are and why and then put them in the correct equipment if they agree.

I guarantee all my work so my customers know if there is still a problem after the new equiment is built, I will do whatever needs to be done to insure I meet their expectations.

I just had 2 gentlemen fly in from San Diego to have me fit them as they had been referred by a friend of theirs who is very happy with what I did for him.  I live in Northern California, so it was not an insignificant trip.  One of the 2 was using Callaway X-18's "off the shelf"  They were 1/2" long and needed to be bent 3 degrees upright.  I offered to rework his existing clubs to meet his needs but after hitting some demo clubs, he chose to have a set built instead.  I didn't try to jam a new set down his throat, but I sure was not going to say no when he made the decision to go new.

I don't like the "car salesman" reference.  I consider myself a Professional, just as many of you are in your own fields.  Please don't bash what you don't know.  Thanks for your time.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #4 on: July 26, 2007, 06:06:06 PM »

I'll never go back to off the rack.  Grin
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #5 on: July 26, 2007, 06:18:55 PM »

In my opinion it's the difference between buying a suit off the rack and having it altered to fit (more or less) or having a tailor measure you make a suit to fit you instead of fitting you (more or less) to a suit. Neither is necessarily wrong, both generally fit the need, and on first glance, there probably isn't a huge difference to the casual observer. For most people who need a suit to wear to weddings, funerals, and job interviews, it seems a perfectly natural choice to go with the off the rack suit because they tend to be priced much less. However, if you could get a custom tailored suit for generally around the same price as, and in many cases much less than, the off the rack suit that will fit (more or less) which would you choose?

But then again, I'm a bona fide Kool-Aid drinker.  Wink
« Last Edit: July 26, 2007, 06:20:43 PM by spacey » Logged Return to Top
Clive
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #6 on: July 26, 2007, 06:53:26 PM »

This from a guy who custom-fits, although not professionally:

Honestly, I think the majority of guys -- the ones living under the meat of the bell curve -- don't benefit hugely from fitting.  While club length and loft has migrated over time, it's been a marketing driven pursuit so that the clubs can be touted as being "the longest" ones out there.  Despite that, irons lengths have grown only a quarter-inch over the past quarter century.  The average US male has been around 5'10" for decades.  The average guy still has hands the same size as the average guy did in the 70s.  The typical swing tempo is still neither languid nor epileptic.  Swing speeds with irons are pretty much the same; maybe slightly higher now, but the longer club accounts for most of that, IMO.

To be sure, there are outlyers who have high/low swing speeds, heights significantly off the 5'10" mark, postures that dictate longer/shorter than standard clubs, and whatnot.  But they are not the average guy.
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #7 on: July 26, 2007, 07:04:51 PM »


I don't like the "car salesman" reference.  I consider myself a Professional, just as many of you are in your own fields.  Please don't bash what you don't know.  Thanks for your time.

Sorry bud.  I would never intend to offend, and if my remark did so, I gladly retract.   Cheers

I agree with your post, and the couple of lines I could get through spacey's. (    *fudge*!  Like bad food at an inlaw's get together, with no booze, or an excuse out)

but I digress.   My argument was more one of a person/or idea of a golfer with a swing Charles Barkley would shudder at being "walla"(sp?) made better by a decent club fitting, instead of those "off the rack $1k TM TP irons" he was playing.

I'm rambling.

 I live on a course, and see many people come by my house flailing at the ball.  Equipment(  Better yet...........Fitted equipment..........can't help them)    Right now.  That's all I'm saying.
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #8 on: July 26, 2007, 07:07:53 PM »

The average US male has been around 5'10" for decades.

Grin Grin Grin

I am SO not average.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #9 on: July 26, 2007, 07:30:29 PM »

Obviously we have to generalize here.  In response Clive's and Spacey's comments I think they're probably right when speaking of the entire golfing population.  However, when we start to dial in to people who watch TGC, visit their site and are so ate up they actually read Frank Thomas, I think we're speaking largely of people who would benefit from a fitting.  They're people like us.  They're into it.

A lot of talk about lies and lengths but for the biggest thing for me was finding shafts.  The specs of your swing can help a clubfitter get you in the right neighborhood.  From there, feel takes over and you have to figure out which ones you like.  I spent about two hours being fitted for irons and half of that was finding a combination that felt right. 

My fitting was a great, great thing.  Then I had a professional build my clubs rather than an assembly line worker.  I was at about 21 when I did this.  I did not have a consistent swing but my fitting has been part of me becoming a better player. 

I will NEVER buy clubs off the rack again.  I might buy used clubs down the road but I'll reshaft with something that works for me.  Unless, of course, I get lucky like I did with the TM driver Baaab found for me.  Had the (original) YS-7 R-flex shaft in it which is what I like.   

Hell, most players don't even worry about grip size and that makes a huge difference.
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #10 on: July 26, 2007, 07:47:49 PM »


I don't like the "car salesman" reference.  I consider myself a Professional, just as many of you are in your own fields.  Please don't bash what you don't know.  Thanks for your time.

Sorry bud.  I would never intend to offend, and if my remark did so, I gladly retract.   Cheers

I agree with your post, and the couple of lines I could get through spacey's. (    *fudge*!  Like bad food at an inlaw's get together, with no booze, or an excuse out)

but I digress.   My argument was more one of a person/or idea of a golfer with a swing Charles Barkley would shudder at being "walla"(sp?) made better by a decent club fitting, instead of those "off the rack $1k TM TP irons" he was playing.

I'm rambling.

 I live on a course, and see many people come by my house flailing at the ball.  Equipment(  Better yet...........Fitted equipment..........can't help them)    Right now.  That's all I'm saying.

No problem Stroh, thanks.  I've got pretty thick skin.  You have to to post here!    Thumbs Up
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Walfredo
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #11 on: July 27, 2007, 08:59:05 AM »

I can buy most of what he says.  Most of my friends use standard lie angle and length irons and probably would after a fitting.  I needed mine upright and extended and knew standard didn't really fit me.  I had to adjust my set-up to make them work.  But I got fitted by some kid at a golf shop on a lie board.  Then he let me take a few to the range.  From there I settled on an iron spec that works and haven't thought twice about it. 

But this is just moronic IMO:

"The fact that drivers are not designed to be custom fitted tells me that ”one size fits all” actually works most of the time."    Huh?

Even in OEM fantasy land drivers can and should be fitted to the individual just like irons.
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #12 on: July 30, 2007, 08:19:43 AM »

I think it pays to get fitted with proper shafts (and shafts/heads/loft if getting a new driver), even if you are standard lie and length. 

I got a perfectly fitted** set of callybaby x-forged irons, and my index dropped instantly ~35% just by the mere act of purchasing the set; and has subsequently dropped over two-fold since actually playing with the clubs.

**I didn't actually get 'fitted' for the clubs, but I picked up a set off ebay that had the precise spec's that I KNEW*** would enhance my game.  I mean, I paid attention to more than the looks of the clubs....its cool knobs, bulges, decals, stickers and whatnots.


***How did I know?  I just KNEW.  Just like you KNOW when the moment is right to propose to your future spouse****, or when to enjoy a Michelob.

****ibid http://www.golfhos.com/topic-4226.html
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Re: Blades v. Cavity Backs / Club Fitting
« Reply #13 on: July 30, 2007, 09:25:33 AM »

If we were all 'average' than he would be right - be we ain't.

3 case studies:

1)  A co-worker is a tall lanky guy wanted clubs that fit him better, but with a baby on the way didn't want to spend a lot of money on new clubs.  So - I simply 'measured' him for length, used shaft extenders to size his existing clubs longer, and replaced the grips with midsize ones to fit his hands.  To him is was like getting an entirely new set of clubs - it was such an improvement in comfort for him that he began to play more, and improved, golf (until said baby came along).  +1 for custom fitting.

2)  The wife of a college friend wanted to start playing golf, but was really frustrated with her husbands old set that she had been using.  So, I made her a new set of clubs for a proper novice lady golfer - lighter weight, more flexible shafts, slightly shorter in length.  We all went to the range to give them a test drive.  After about 10 shots her eyes just lit up - "wow, its a whole new game!" she said (who a season later had a baby and has not played much since).  +2 for custom fitting.

3)  A former co-worker wanted a new set of clubs.  He is of normal height, but a strong guy.  I simply made him a standard length set of clubs with a stiff steel shaft (he was complaining about the graphites in his old set).  He certainly liked them and loved the way they looked - but I gotta be honest, all he needed was a firmer shaft - something he could have got 'off the rack'.  (he had no new baby, but did get re-married)  A 'push' between custom and rack fitting.

So, after three holes custom fitting is up 2 (with two babies, a boy and a girl - whatever that means).

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