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What do you call it? How do you score it?

 
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JDerion
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What do you call it? How do you score it?
« on: October 08, 2007, 02:07:07 PM »

The game is match play. Player A hits his second shot on a par five hole to two feet. Player B reaches the green, is looking at bogey and is out of the hole, and therefore concedes the putt. Player A, knowing full well that the hole is over according to the rules of golf, doesn't feel right making eagle on a conceded putt, so he walks up and promptly misses the putt.

Did Player A make an eagle or a birdie? When he goes to post his match play score, as the USGA insists, does he post his score with a '3' or a '4' on the hole? 
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Fuzzy
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #1 on: October 08, 2007, 02:25:28 PM »

IMO, eagle on the scorecard. I've been involved in similar scenarios (not eagles, but birdie concessions) and its been scored that way.

Not in my mind however. I'd have to make the putt to feel "right" about calling it an eagle.
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stroh
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #2 on: October 08, 2007, 02:32:11 PM »

My understanding (and we have had this discussion on our weekend fivesome, and Men's Club events)  That :
A putt conceded, is a putt conceded.  Period.  The score would then reflect that.

The game is a game of honor, and if that concession is given (by an appropriate agency, of course) it is dead.  Out of play.  Putt it all over the green if you want to.  Probably why that's also allowed.

May feel cheesey writing it down, but it's a 3.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 02:49:59 PM by stroh » Logged Return to Top
Uisce Beatha
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #3 on: October 08, 2007, 02:33:00 PM »

A concession cannot be declined or withdrawn.  It's an eagle no matter how you slice it.

The whole "post strokeplay score for handicap" thing for a matchplay round is stupid to say the least.  Decision 33-1/6 prohibits a player competing in both forms of play at the same time.  However, the USGA handicap system says it's an allowable round for index calculation.  How can such things be resolved cleanly?

I say it's a three for posting purposes but clearly some of those folks in Far Hills are bent in the head.  It shouldn't be allowed.  There's no way you can come up with a good approximation of a strokeplay score while playing matchplay.
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #4 on: October 08, 2007, 02:56:40 PM »

To further it;  And whiskers may be more apt than I to clarify......

Isn't the stroke actually conceded, and the player deemed to have hole out?

That is to say, You could concede your opponent's 150 yard second, score him a deuce, and really *fudge* with him.

I of course wouldn't stoop to such gamesmanship. I need all the help I can get.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #5 on: October 08, 2007, 03:05:42 PM »

To further it;  And whiskers may be more apt than I to clarify......

Isn't the stroke actually conceded, and the player deemed to have hole out?

That is to say, You could concede your opponent's 150 yard second, score him a deuce, and really *fudge* with him.

I of course wouldn't stoop to such gamesmanship. I need all the help I can get.

Stroh, you've put your finger on exactly why never the twain shall meet.  In matchplay a hole is won, halved or lost.  The score is irrelevant.  Now, if I scored a natural (not conceded) ace or eagle in matchplay I'd certainly be stoked about it and tell my friends.  But in the course of the match there were only three possible outcomes for that hole.  Beating someone 3 strokes to 9 is worth exactly as much as beating someone 4 strokes to 5.

For reference purposes the rule reads:

Quote
2-4 Concession of Next Stroke, Hole or Match

A player may concede his opponent’s next stroke at any time provided the opponent’s ball is at rest. The opponent is considered to have holed out with his next stroke and the ball may be removed by either side.

A player may concede a hole at any time prior to the start or conclusion of that hole.

A player may concede a match at any time prior to the start or conclusion of that match.

A concession may not be declined or withdrawn.
« Last Edit: October 08, 2007, 03:10:09 PM by Uisce Beatha » Logged Return to Top

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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #6 on: October 08, 2007, 05:50:43 PM »

For match-play purposes: you won the hole.
For handicap score-posting purposes: it's a three.
For 19th-hole purposes: you missed a two-foot putt for eagle.  You're a *8==>*head.


FWIW, I wouldn't sweat the score-to-be-turned-in part.  Your mindset would be different after the concession, since you knew the stroke didn't really count anyway.  Would you have missed that putt if you really needed it?  I think not.
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #7 on: October 08, 2007, 06:47:32 PM »

A concession cannot be declined or withdrawn.  It's an eagle no matter how you slice it.

The whole "post strokeplay score for handicap" thing for a matchplay round is stupid to say the least.  Decision 33-1/6 prohibits a player competing in both forms of play at the same time.  However, the USGA handicap system says it's an allowable round for index calculation.  How can such things be resolved cleanly?

I say it's a three for posting purposes but clearly some of those folks in Far Hills are bent in the head.  It shouldn't be allowed.  There's no way you can come up with a good approximation of a strokeplay score while playing matchplay.
The whole USGA thing is the problem. The decision on handicaps reads that after a concession I should post the score that I would most likely make if the hole had not been conceded. The problem I have is that I compete off my handicap, so I really want to have an accurate number. So what do I do when you concede me a 8 footer on #2, a 7 footer on #11, and an 8 footer on #14? As independent events, I'm most likely miss more eight foot putts than I make. And independently, I will miss more seven footers than I make.  However, collectively, more often than not, I will make at least one of those three putts during a typical round. In fact, I'd bet on making at least one of three from those distances in a round. Since I "have" to post the score, does the Far Hills gang really think I'm going to accept the concession of that 7 footer for bogey but score it as a double because, in my estimation, I only make 40% of my putts from that range? On the other hand, I'm not going to give myself all those putts either since that could have me posting scores that are too low for my ability.

So, my solution is to just play out conceded holes in some cases. Now, normally, I would never putt out a conceded two footer. Frankly, I'd probably pick up most anything inside 3-4 feet if it was given to me. And had I gone to knock in this particular two footer, but it was for a conceded bogey, and I missed it...I'd post the bogey, call it a bogey, and probably forget the whole thing by the next tee. When I say I play out conceded holes, I mean that I play out most balls that are in that makable but missable range.

For the last day I've been kicking myself for not making the putt. To make matters worse, the approach was possibly the best shot of my life. Downhill lie, 200 yards, to one of the most elevated and intimidating greens I've ever played, with a flag cut maybe ten paces from the edge of a slope that would reject any shot that was short. Short of going in, it was a perfect shot, and with a 4 iron which isn't exactly my go-to club. Then, the putt...

At the time I wrote four on the card, and without thinking about the concession rule, I even posted my score as if I had made birdie (sandbagging). Now I'm realizing that I should have called it a 3, even though it felt like a 4. I've concluded that Cliff is right; the hole was won, it's a three on the card, and I'm an *bunghole*, both for missing the putt, AND, for not picking up a two footer that was given to me.

Still, the whole thing is cheesy. I guess I'll add it to my short list of career eagles, but this one feels like it has an * next to it.
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JDerion
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #8 on: October 08, 2007, 06:50:13 PM »

Also, would I have missed it if not conceded? Probably not, although you never know. My opponent said the same thing; I only missed because it didn't count. I had made every big putt I needed all day (won 3&2, and it was a fourball, and my partner contributed only one halved hole...I was having a solid day). Anyway, I'm still a moron.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #9 on: October 08, 2007, 06:58:08 PM »


Anyway, I'm still a moron.


Frankly, I think the morons are the guys who put together such an unworkable set of rules.  The USGA Handicap System is completely broken.  It's all we have and I'm diligent about calculating my index accurately according to their rules but I constantly find myself in situations such as you describe.  You want to do the right thing but for the love of Che Guevara it's just not always easy (possible even) to figure out.

Anyway, congrats on the fine round and in my book you can call it an eagle.
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Re: What do you call it? How do you score it?
« Reply #10 on: October 08, 2007, 07:50:04 PM »



Anyway, congrats on the fine round and in my book you can call it an eagle.


Ditto.  Well done on a nice round, and refreshing to hear from a guy who actually thinks about his round, and score, as opposed to the oil change due on his Lexus, his POS AFC team, and how cute the ass is on the beer cart girl.
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