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[P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?

 
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stroh
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[P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« on: August 05, 2007, 08:17:29 AM »

I've got one eye, and one ear on some sort of (I'm guessing GOP) debate.  I'm not "watching" it intently, just pause for a couple of minutes as I pass through the kitchen.

They just threw up a graphic, and one dude was talking about it.
The Fair Tax.

Discontinue:  Individual income tax, estate tax, etc.  and everyone in 'Merka pays a flat 23% sales tax.

My initial take:  Brilliant!  I have always been the middle class that gets killed in Income tax, and have always lived in a state where I have to pay another tax on all the *feces* I buy.  We gotta build stadiums.

Seems to me that this fair tax, would hold everyone responsible to pay their share*.

*I think that's the beauty.  Your share is what you make it.  Don't wanna pay the gubmint?  Make your own sig'retts.  Wanna support the National Defense?  Go buy a couple o' cases of Mich. Golden.

What do you guys think?

I'm sure is a big piece(s) that I don't see.
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Aske
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #1 on: August 05, 2007, 09:32:23 AM »

to begin with, that was a disingenuous representation, the current proposal is for a 30% tax, they use marketing to make it look like a 23% tax



that said, yes...
current system is in need of repair, no doubt.




however, the fair tax isn't the answer to my eyes either, certainly regressive for more than 1/2 the population

if your current tax burden (fed income etc ) is > 30% of your aggregate spendings on goods,services,etc  it's for you.  (aka, you're rich and don't spend anything close to all you earn)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 09:43:20 AM by Aske » Logged Return to Top

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birdymaker
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #2 on: August 05, 2007, 10:21:34 AM »

and how do state and local taxes fall in with this system? to eradicate all taxes you currently pay, that number would be closer to 40%. ie fuel taxes, cigarette taxes, entertainment taxes and so on.

by the way, it'll never happen.  Wink
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #3 on: August 05, 2007, 10:29:16 AM »

I think if you called it what it is, a National Sales Tax, it wouldn't get off the ground.

It's a regressive system, and just more 'Keep Your Hands Off Of My Piece Of The Pie' so-called 'Conservatism' that we've been treated to for the last 25 years.

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birdymaker
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #4 on: August 05, 2007, 10:36:23 AM »

just imagine the feds, states, and locals all fighting over their share of the same pie.  Watching you

stroh is ar15 ?  Devil
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #5 on: August 05, 2007, 11:54:22 AM »

just imagine the feds, states, and locals all fighting over their share of the same pie.  Watching you

Hell, they already do, which is why I can honestly say that in a place that ALREADY has 9 pct local sales tax, adding another 20 or 25 pct isn't working for me.

Here's how I understand it:

My 25 pct total Federal withholding would  drop by half, while my tax on all purchases made would increase by 20 pct. Every dollar I spend would have 30 cents added on, so when I buy a pack of gum for 1.00, I'm going to end up paying 1.30.

Yeah, that's going to work out for me really, really well.

NOT!

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stroh is ar15 ?  Devil

I wondered about that too...
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stroh
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2007, 02:50:23 PM »



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stroh is ar15 ?  Devil

I wondered about that too...

LOL  No.  I don't know who that is.  It's just me.. Plain ol stroh.

I haven't done any of the math, and I was just asking.  Is this a good thing, or a bad thing.

I just feel over taxed. Sad  I would like to see it evened out, and fair.
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2007, 02:55:18 PM »

I'm an evil ten percenter.  My opinion matters not.  Come to think of it, probably most of you are too.  So shut the *fudge* up already.   Wink

I would like to see stroh's tax burden reduced though.  I'd hate to see him snap. 



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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2007, 03:29:59 PM »

I think Aske is right  Shocked Wink - its effectively a 30% sales tax.

It will never get anywhere, and its not really a good idea anyway.

1)  It CAN be regressive.  Not to the amounts some claim because there are basic right-offs, but regressive is something it could turn out to be.  Or at a minimum, not progressive enough for those that teeter towards socialism (also the 'problem' with a pure flat tax).

2)  I think it would noticeably affect purchasing, which would lead to a slightly diminished retail market.  When retail suffers the economy suffers, and so on and so forth.  The guy pushing this idea erroneously believes that the prices of goods and services would not increase under this system (less business tax, etc.), but thats highly (foolishly?) optimistic.

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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #9 on: August 05, 2007, 03:42:22 PM »

I think Aske is right  Shocked Wink - its effectively a 30% sales tax.

It will never get anywhere, and its not really a good idea anyway.

1)  It CAN be regressive.  Not to the amounts some claim because there are basic right-offs, but regressive is something it could turn out to be.  Or at a minimum, not progressive enough for those that teeter towards socialism (also the 'problem' with a pure flat tax).

2)  I think it would noticeably affect purchasing, which would lead to a slightly diminished retail market.  When retail suffers the economy suffers, and so on and so forth.  The guy pushing this idea erroneously believes that the prices of goods and services would not increase under this system (less business tax, etc.), but thats highly (foolishly?) optimistic.

Sales tax would be higher, but wouldn't everybody's take-home pay be higher since there wouldn't be a need for income tax witholding on each paycheck?

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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #10 on: August 05, 2007, 03:47:54 PM »

If my take home income goes up 15 pct, and my outgo goes up 30 pct, that's still a net loss, yes or no?

So, I take home $1.15 for every dollar I get now, but I spend $1.30 for every dollar I spend now.

This is a 'Fair' tax?

It's only 'Fair' if you're putting more than 15 pct of your income in savings, and I'm guessing MOST Americans aren't doing that, and those that are aren't in any kind of dire need.

Penalizes the lower third, whilst letting the upper third and above 'Keep Their Piece Of The Pie' and make it bigger.

More Conservatism run amok.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2007, 03:51:58 PM by MFAWG » Logged Return to Top

The things that will destroy America are prosperity at any price, peace at any price, safety first instead of duty first, the love of soft living and the get rich quick theory of life. -- Teddy Roosevelt
stroh
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #11 on: August 05, 2007, 04:02:31 PM »

 Bricks
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Uisce Beatha
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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #12 on: August 05, 2007, 04:42:31 PM »



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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #13 on: August 05, 2007, 05:29:22 PM »

Well to be a little more fair than the 'conservatism run amok' bunch, I'll play devil's advocate for a moment.

There is a basic monthly "prebate" (distributed by the SSA) to account for basic goods (poverty level spending) that rolls out like this:



This is the plan to make the tax progressive.

Also, since the Fair Tax takes on FICA and Medicare as well, your take home pay likely goes up more than 15%.  More money to spend on what you want.

Eliminating the IRS, filings, and associated CPA overhead is also a tremendous savings to all; more tax money to spend on SS, Med, etc.

















But it still sucks  Wink.  Taxing spending directly will likely have an affect on spending.  Spending makes the economy go round.  When the economy slows everyone loses.  For instance, you get more money out of your paycheck but now are looking at 30%+ tax on all your purchases.  So, in terms we can all understand - that new driver that used to cost $400 + ~7% tax ($428), is now $400 + 37% tax ($548).  More money in your pocket or not, that extra cost may give you pause.  If not that, then a new car at $25,000 + 37% tax ($34,250) surely would.

Now, the argument is that without business taxes, consumer prices will drop.  Yes, perhaps some - but I'm not holding out hope for a difference that will not make people think an extra moment before making a large purchase because of taxes.  With just one out of a hundred choosing not to spend the 'extra', that does have a retail affect.

Sure, we are still paying today via income and payroll taxes - but once that is paid there is minimal 'penalty' (additional taxes - local, state, etc.) on new purchases.  We do all sorts of things to avoid taxes (keep your money) - what makes Boortz think we'll suddenly stop, I don't know.

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Re: [P No R, Just P] Fair Tax?
« Reply #14 on: August 05, 2007, 05:34:59 PM »

Stroh,

The FairTax proposal includes a "basic living" sort of subsidy.  Essentially, the government writes YOU a check for some amount that's supposed to cover the 30% sales tax on the crap that your family is expected to purchase to cover basic living expenses (clothes, food, whatnot).  You pay your 30% sales tax on everything, and hopefully the poor don't get totally hosed by having to buy more than the subsidy protected them from.

Unless there's some repeal of the Sixteenth Amendment, there's absolutely nothing to prevent the federal government from subsequently levying an income tax again.  In addition to the FairTax.

I have no idea what, if anything, would be exempt.  I'd expect, though, that it would apply to almost everything, and it could apply to your utilities, an automobile purchase, potentially a home purchase, college tuition -- even beer!

Speaking for myself, it wouldn't affect my purchase decision for a latte.  But I'd have serious second thoughts about any sort of pricey purchase, and I'd obviously be looking used on such things.  (Until the used market rockets out of reach because of that demand, that is.)


Ultimately, the US is a consumer economy.  I believe that any radical proposal that has the change to majorly *fudge* with that is not worth implementing.
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